[cha1n]

Hey, did my second 'proper' fingerboard session today and just wanted some insight if possible.

I'm not really interested in repeaters because I've read that they are a power endurance exercise and I'm not overly concerned about that whilst we're in bouldering season and once I get back to climbing routes in the spring, I'm hoping to keep the max hangs going to slowly build up my finger strength.

My session went like this:

Front 3 - Open              Big Edge   10   5   30   180   15   None
All 4 - Half Crimp      Big Edge   10   5   30   180   15   None
Back 3 - Open        Big Edge   10   5   30   180   15   1 foot on tip toes
Front 2 - Open           deep pocket   10   5   30   180   15   1 foot on tip toes
Slopers                         35Deg   10   5   30   180   15   None

The timings refer to; 10s hang duration, 5 hangs/set, 30s between hangs, 180s between grip types, 15 minutes between big sets.

I only did 2 sets of these and I was fooked! The first set was hard but OK and the second set was desperate, my question is do you think I should be resting longer between hangs for strength work?

Also, I know traditionally 5 seconds would be hang duration but after reading the interesting Eva Lopez article on here, I decided to try out the longer  hang duration and start adding weight when seeing progress. Even just writing this down I'm thinking 10s is too long now, perhaps 7 would be more appropriate...

If I do max hangs on a 3 week cycle with 1 week off, should I be able to do this indefinitely throughout the year or is it recommended to have longer periods without finger boarding? I only ask as I've read it should be done little and often.

[tomtom]

First time you do it will be a big shock to the body, so two repeats isnt surprising.. Take enough days rest and I suspect second time it wont be half as bad...

[Sasquatch]

When you go out and work a project that is at your absolute limit for 1-2 moves, how many decent efforts do you get?  That's the most hangs you should be doing in a session.  You're doing 50 hangs total, which seems like way too many for max hangs.  I know it extremely difficult to believe, but less is more in this case. 

[Styx]

I'm not really interested in repeaters because I've read that they are a power endurance exercise and I'm not overly concerned about that whilst we're in bouldering season and once I get back to climbing routes in the spring, I'm hoping to keep the max hangs going to slowly build up my finger strength.

Is that strictly correct? I'm a little puzzled by this honestly, I keep seeing contradictory references. I thought that max hangs (few reps, high intensity) would equate to neurological recruitment whereas repeaters (more reps) would have more of a hypertrophy effect?

[TobyD]

I'm not really interested in repeaters because I've read that they are a power endurance exercise and I'm not overly concerned about that whilst we're in bouldering season and once I get back to climbing routes in the spring, I'm hoping to keep the max hangs going to slowly build up my finger strength.

Is that strictly correct? I'm a little puzzled by this honestly, I keep seeing contradictory references. I thought that max hangs (few reps, high intensity) would equate to neurological recruitment whereas repeaters (more reps) would have more of a hypertrophy effect?

Up to a point. You generally (as far as i understand it) have to stick at max hangs for more than six weeks, and probably more like 3 months of carefully structured progression to get genuine strength gains. Up to 3 or 4 weeks, it's all recruitment. PE gains can be made slightly more quickly. Again, I am absolutely no authority but I also would have thought that it is worth having a specific project in mind for max hangs to be able to tailor them to a specific hold type / weakness.

[Styx]

Up to a point. You generally (as far as i understand it) have to stick at max hangs for more than six weeks, and probably more like 3 months of carefully structured progression to get genuine strength gains. Up to 3 or 4 weeks, it's all recruitment. PE gains can be made slightly more quickly. Again, I am absolutely no authority but I also would have thought that it is worth having a specific project in mind for max hangs to be able to tailor them to a specific hold type / weakness.

That's what I thought, again I'm far from an expert, quite the opposite. I've been trying to tailor my strength training phase and figuring out what to do about my fingerboard workouts is driving me mad, repeaters or max hangs?

[cha1n]

I know it extremely difficult to believe, but less is more in this case.

Thanks for the replies people.

I see what you're saying, instinct tells me that the first set were good quality hangs and the second set wasn't quite there. 15 minutes just wasn't enough to recover fully and 2 sets with warm up/down took 2 hours and I'm not committing any more than that to a fingerboard session!

Maybe I'll increase the rest period between hangs and grip type and complete one set only. Sound reasonable?

Regarding repeaters, the one time I tried them I was failing because I was pumped not because I wasn't capable of holding the hold. This reminds me of climbing routes so whether there is any evidence or not, i'm not fond of it as an exercise, If I want to get pumped I'll go climb a route!

[Luke Owens]

As Sasquatch said it seems like a lot of volume to be classed as a "Max Strength" workout. As you said by the second set you were more tired and surely unable to give every hang maximum effort.

By increasing the load using weight or smaller holds (open to debate which is better), increasing the rest time and doing less hangs. This will equate to a higher intensity on the fingers and rely less on endurance which you would of been relying on by that second set. You shouldn't be getting pumped.

This is just my personal opinion and I'm definitely no guru on training though.

[Pebblespanker]

Quality not quantity for strength

As you are doing Max hangs you should always ensure you warm up properly as you are pushing your fingers to the limit. If it helps my sessions generally follow the following for Max hangs

10 mins stretches, press ups, a few pull ups, 5 mins rest
Warm Up Repeaters (7secs/3secs, 6 reps/set, 3 mins rest) 3 sets   - generally Repeaters in a progression Jugs, large edges, 3F pockets (there are all easy for me and specifically to warm up the larger muscles), 5-10 mins rest
Stretches 5 mins
Progressive Warm Up -  I do a 2-3 sets of dead hangs on smaller holds or with increasing resistance, 5 mins between sets, 10 mins rest
Max Hangs  (6 reps/set, 1 minute between hangs, 5 mins rest between sets) 3-5 sets at most on chosen grip of finger configuration
Warm Down
Total sets: 8-10

The approach above is my attempt at trying to minimise injury risk and I usually do a specific focus in each session e.g. Back 2, Crimps, Open hand etc. depending on weakness/projects etc spread out over the week (3-5 sessions )
 
Timings are down to how you feel but once you can manage 10 secs it probably time to add weight or reduce assistance. Lastly plan your training with specific periods of effort dedicated to your needs i.e. strength, PE, stamina etc. in blocks of 8-12 weeks for example with planned rest periods between cycles - tons of info on here from people far better qualified to advise than me if you do some searching

[cha1n]

Thanks for that, what's your hang duration for strength? I think I read 5-7 seconds somewhere...

[jwi]

From Fig. 3. in Force-time parameters during explosive isometric grip correlate with muscle power it seems like 5s should be enough for pure strength training.

[mrjonathanr]

And here's the opposite approach, I posted link in another thread, partly because I'm intrigued, partly because I wonder what other climbers think (apart from Krank who introduced me to this) ...

It bears a bit of sifting through, but in essence, it's about strength training through sustained underload, and I believe the gymnastics coaches have a track-record of some success here.

https://www.gymnasticbodies.com/forum/topic/3323-steady-state-training-cycle/

[Sasquatch]

And here's the opposite approach, I posted link in another thread, partly because I'm intrigued, partly because I wonder what other climbers think (apart from Krank who introduced me to this) ...

It bears a bit of sifting through, but in essence, it's about strength training through sustained underload, and I believe the gymnastics coaches have a track-record of some success here.

https://www.gymnasticbodies.com/forum/topic/3323-steady-state-training-cycle/

I think this is actually not that far from what Lopez is recommending.  She says you should test to what weight and hold size you can hang for 13seconds, then then workout is to perform 3-5 hangs at that level for 10 seconds.  As this becomes easier, you increase the weight or decrease the hold size, but maintaining the no failure zone. 

[John Gillott]

And here's the opposite approach, I posted link in another thread, partly because I'm intrigued, partly because I wonder what other climbers think (apart from Krank who introduced me to this) ...

It bears a bit of sifting through, but in essence, it's about strength training through sustained underload, and I believe the gymnastics coaches have a track-record of some success here.

https://www.gymnasticbodies.com/forum/topic/3323-steady-state-training-cycle/

I think this is actually not that far from what Lopez is recommending.  She says you should test to what weight and hold size you can hang for 13seconds, then then workout is to perform 3-5 hangs at that level for 10 seconds.  As this becomes easier, you increase the weight or decrease the hold size, but maintaining the no failure zone.

I'm not sure that's right. Very crudely, in part I read Lopez as recommending something analogous to standard practice in training for strength gains in other disciplines - you don't go to failure; rather you exercise quite close to failure with the expectation that this will move the limit.

I take the gymnast coaches to be saying something slightly different - build a solid base. Increase the volume of the work you do at a bit below your max.

In both cases you are operating close (ish) to your max, but in one case the volume is small and you are looking to increase the intensity. In the other you are looking to increase the volume at a given level of intensity for the individual routine.

I remember reading a link on here I think a few years ago to training for one arm pullups. One piece of advice, in line with the gymnast coaches perhaps, was 'embrace the plateau'. I read it as advice about conditioning in the first instance; preparing yourself to move on to the next stage.

[Sasquatch]

Sort of, the SSC prootocol seems to indicate that you should be doing building up to a x time for a certain FBE(bodyweight gymnastic position) before moving on to a more difficult position.  To do this, you test your max time in that position, then do workouts that are proportionately less than your max time. For the advanced FBE positions, they seems to be recomending a similar concept: if you can hold 15 seconds, then do 3-5 reps at 5-7 seconds. 

I believe the Lopez protocol (not simply max hangs) indicates that prior to starting you should bhe able to hold the hold unweighted for greater than 35 seconds (similar to the prerequisites for the easier FBE positions), and then you use a shorter duration for training the more advanced positions based on setting an initial max hang time of 13 seconds. 

I think the missing aspect that they're recommended is the concept of underlaoding.  However, this isn't strength training through underloading, it's using underloading in a training cycle to reset your body's baseline concept of "work".  This is more of a periodization concept rather than a purely strength training concept.

[jwi]

I find it unlikely that a seasoned climber will not have a sufficient base of 5-30 s static holds far from max strength...

[Sasquatch]

Her baseline is to hold a 20mm edge for 35+ seconds.  I wouldn't be surprised if there were many "seasoned" climbers who couldn't do that.  I was bouldering 7C+ when I started and could only hold an 18mm edge for 40 seconds. 

This would be about the FBE equivalent to holding a curled front lever for 60 seconds.  Something I'm not sure if I could do right now. 

I take the gymnast coaches to be saying something slightly different - build a solid base. Increase the volume of the work you do at a bit below your max.

In both cases you are operating close (ish) to your max, but in one case the volume is small and you are looking to increase the intensity. In the other you are looking to increase the volume at a given level of intensity for the individual routine.

I remember reading a link on here I think a few years ago to training for one arm pullups. One piece of advice, in line with the gymnast coaches perhaps, was 'embrace the plateau'. I read it as advice about conditioning in the first instance; preparing yourself to move on to the next stage.

I see what you're saying a bit better after a night to sleep on it, and would tend to agree.  That's one of the reasons I cycle through repeaters and use that 6-8 week repeater cycle to increase the hang volume, starting with 1 set of 6 grips, and building to 3 rounds of 6 grips, but not really increasing the difficulty of the individual grips/hangs.  I think consolidation at a certain level is critical to staying injury free, which in turn gets you stronger in the long run...

[cha1n]

I've been bouldering over 3 years, have done a handful of 7B's (all in a single session) flashed quite a few 7A's and 7A+'s and I can only just hang on for 10 seconds on the big edges on the BM 2000.

Would you say it's worth trying to meet Eva's minimum requirements before proceeding any more with fingerboarding? I've only had two sessions afterall.

[Sasquatch]

I've been bouldering over 3 years, have done a handful of 7B's (all in a single session) flashed quite a few 7A's and 7A+'s and I can only just hang on for 10 seconds on the big edges on the BM 2000.

Would you say it's worth trying to meet Eva's minimum requirements before proceeding any more with fingerboarding? I've only had two sessions afterall.

Out of curiousity, if you can only hang the bm2k large slots for 10 sec, is that with the added weight?

[cha1n]

Nope  and I had to keep a foot on the wall infront on my first session, but second session I could take the foot off for half crimps and 3 finger open.

[rosmat]

Nope  and I had to keep a foot on the wall infront on my first session, but second session I could take the foot off for half crimps and 3 finger open.

Do you mean using 1 hand / arm or 2 hands / arms?

[cha1n]

Haha, I'm starting to feel like I'm unusual now... Both arms, I tried hanging from 1 arm with 35Kg attached to sling through a pulley and my foot in the other end of the sling and couldn't do it (I had a home made board with only one small edge) so bought a BM 2000 and could only just hang with two hands so will stick to two hands for now!

[IanP]

Haha, I'm starting to feel like I'm unusual now... Both arms, I tried hanging from 1 arm with 35Kg attached to sling through a pulley and my foot in the other end of the sling and couldn't do it (I had a home made board with only one small edge) so bought a BM 2000 and could only just hang with two hands so will stick to two hands for now!

Do mean the large slots at either end of the middle row of the BM or the not really very large crimps at either end of the bottom row of the BM.  If the former then I reckon you are pretty unusual, I'm pretty weak and have only bouldered up to font 7a+ (and aren't that level at the moment) but can still manage much more tha 10s on them.

[cha1n]

No it was the big edges.

I was talking to a mate about it today whilst we were bouldering at TCA. Most of my mates fingerboard and have done for years but I generally climb a little bit harder than them. Not sure what it is, I class myself as having decent technique and put lots of weight through my feet, maybe that's it.

Thing is, when you get on a steep wall with nothing but small edges there's no hiding from the fact that you need strong fingers, so I've decided to work on that weakness. As I said before, do you reckon I should do the 35 second hang thing before trying to do strength work specifically?

[cha1n]

Oh and also, for the first 2 and a bit years I only ever crimped (full crimp, with thumb), even slopers and that got my by quite well but when I started blowing pulleys all the time I had to change my grip preferences. So even though I've been bouldering for 4 years later this year, I've only been open handing and half crimp for 6-9 months. This probably makes a difference?

[Sasquatch]

No it was the big edges.

I was talking to a mate about it today whilst we were bouldering at TCA. Most of my mates fingerboard and have done for years but I generally climb a little bit harder than them. Not sure what it is, I class myself as having decent technique and put lots of weight through my feet, maybe that's it.

Thing is, when you get on a steep wall with nothing but small edges there's no hiding from the fact that you need strong fingers, so I've decided to work on that weakness. As I said before, do you reckon I should do the 35 second hang thing before trying to do strength work specifically?

I would think you're fine to work on strength, the difference is in what type of strength work you do.  I wouldn't do the added weight protocol.  I think doing BW hangs for a bit on the big slots until you can comfortable hang them for 5 sets of 15-20 seconds, then I would start in on the beginner repeater set for 6ish weeks or so to stimulate muscle growth (hypertrophy).  After you finish that first repeater cycle, we can see where you're at, but you're really starting at stage 1.

[cha1n]

Thanks for the info Sasquatch.

I'm just a bit worried that the hypertrophy will ruin my current recruitment. I have no idea if that's a reasonable assumption to make, but I've only just started to feel like I can pull hard again after stopping route climbing a few months ago.

Does that sound nonsensical?

[Sasquatch]

I am not an expert on the science, so I generally defer to those who know better(despite arguing with them until I understand). 
My take would be that it depends on your goals.  If you have a goal that you're focused on right now that is big enough, then go for it.