[dave]

The requirement should be that ascents are filmed on 16mm cine film.

[Sasquatch]

The requirement should be that ascents are filmed on 16mm cine film.

 

It'll open a whole new world of FA possibilities  

it'll be the FFA (First Film ascent) 

[Nemo]

Perhaps it will be constructive to explain what happened at Almscliff.  It’s the only Gaskins problem I really know much about – and given the confusion around it, it’s not hard to see why there are skeptics elsewhere.  The problem he actually climbed turned out to be a completely different line to what everyone had thought it was for over a decade  – the cause being a combination of vague descriptions and vague diagrams in guidebooks.  To those who think it’s impossible to sort these things, it’s worth noting that a polite request from the YMC guide team did the trick in this case – a detailed description was provided which cleared up the mess.  Note – it was complete pot luck that the problem now known as Identity Crisis turned out to be climbable at 8A+ - it could very easily have been another problem which seemed impossible or Font 9A or whatever.  I can’t help wondering how many other of the controversial problems where the grades seem way out aren’t similar situations.

"in itself surely a Font 9a position" - Monolith

Sorry to pick on this out of the many possible examples, but it’s this kind of myth making which I really don’t think helps anyone.  He’s still in the toe hooks – the hard bit is presumably going to be leaving them.  I actually think some of the more over the top worshipping really hasn’t done him any favours – along with the vague details, it’s had the effect of putting his stuff into a mythical land, when the reality is probably a bit more down to earth.

"which has to have lost the big foothold off it for john not to be levitating" - Carlisle Slapper

Has anyone actually asked him to go and have a look at Shadowplay in recent years – if he saw it, he may well roll around laughing and point out that all the holds have fallen off???  I really think that those who know him would be doing both him and everyone else a favour, if they managed to arrange to go with him and check his hard problems out – find out if they are still in the state he climbed them in, and if so, what on earth beta he used for things like Shadowplay.  Clearly there’s never going to be any “proof” of problems he climbed on his own.  But I think most of the controversy revolves around problems which look pretty much impossible.  If there’s a simple explanation (e.g hold loss) then maybe most of the controversy will disappear?  And if they are still in their original state, then it’s a great shame that there isn’t more clarity so they get the credit they deserve and so people would come and try them.

[Monolith]

I hear you Nemo and I understand how myth making has and will always exist in climbing but there really do seem to be a number of credible witnesses (Ben Pritch and others) who have seen him performing impressively enough for me to accept him as he is. A close friend of mine used (as did some others in the South Lakes) to arrive at Raven Tor "super early" only to find him packing up done for the day. This attitude to me at least is demonstrable of a genuine go getter. To reiterate my earlier point, John could easily have claimed the Brandenburg Gate project after all that effort, yet he never did. The Shelter Stone project might similarly have been claimed yet it wasn't. Call it blind faith, call it what you want, I just believe.

[Doylo]

He might be in the toe hooks but strong fingered McClure couldn't even hang them.

[Turboman]

A close friend of mine used to arrive at Raven Tor "super early" only to find him packing up done for the day. This attitude to me at least is demonstrable of a genuine go getter.

I used to do a 7:30am start at the Tor and on several occasions saw Gaskins on the Brandenburg project. He seemed a quiet/private guy so we didn't engage him in conversation, just the odd 'hi'/nod of the head.  To drive from Lakes to Tor for a pre 7:30am start takes a big effort.  What stands out in my mind was that he would drag his misses along with him. She didn't climb and would scurry back to the car for a warm up between belaying (not looking too happy about it either).  He certainly appeared to be putting some effort in and taking some grief.

[Monolith]

Take a close look in the centre of the Yorkshire routes guide. They (possibly on really the left one) are very very marginal, certainly not a heel-toe cam. As Doylo says too.

[c.j.d.]

I was lucky enough to climb and meet with Jon on many occasions.  I sessioned in Wales with him, which is where I discussed the Pil Box project with him.  We hit Sway On, Diesel Power and a couple of other places.  Very strong, but very project oriented.  He went home with Sway on and Diesel Power (sub 30 mins), and flashed SubSociety (8a).

I also had a session with him on his board.  I was absolutely shocked how strong he was.  I've climbed with a good handful of top UK wads, and also International wads, and he was in a different league.

He demonstrated the moves he had used to train for VNB - all harder that moves on the route, and did all.  The speed of movement, and the contact involved was mind blowing.

Not watched him on many of his test pieces, but wouldn't doubt them for a second.  For those who missed him when he was operating - you wouldn't be commenting on this thread if you had.

[Falling Down]

Good post Chris.

[andy_e]

Yeah, makes me want to invent a time machine and join you guys on those sessions.

[Greg C]

With regards to the history of Traci Lords:

Dan's account is roughly correct. At the time, I had been trying what became Traci Lords for a while but in the meantime had recorded some of the other stuff done up there (Stella, Hades Lair etc.) which prompted a conversation with John where I mention the wall that became Traci, and that it was great and seemed really tough. He voiced an interest in going up there, so I (politely) asked if he would stay off Traci for the time being, which he agreed too. Shortly after this he scoped out the area whilst on a walk or run, and subsequently mentioned that Traci looked about V10. This is why when I eventually climbed it I graded it V10 - at the time I simply hadn't climbed enough other hard stuff to realise this was way short of the mark. On top of this, when Gaskins went on to repeat (flash) Traci and then do the sitter, a week or two later, he confirmed that the stand was indeed V10. It is basic - if you are strong enough to climb 8B+ in a session I guess it seemed V10.

[a dense loner]

Chris when I spoke to you about John a long time ago all you and nodder said was that you both saw him do undercut moves on his board which looked very hard and that he was shit in the cave, you never mentioned anything at all about climbing with him any other time or pissing these 3 8a's, this was after pill box btw. I find this rather unusual to come out in the woodwork now since he's been discussed b4 many times.
Also pritch has changed his story from him pissing some moves and looking like a gecko to pissing all of them, which is a different story I've heard from elsewhere.
Is time weighing heavy on your memories or Alzheimer's kicking in? I'm just saying this so people keep an open mind.

[nodder]

Chris when I spoke to you about John a long time ago all you and nodder said was that you both saw him do undercut moves on his board which looked very hard and that he was shit in the cave, you never mentioned anything at all about climbing with him any other time or pissing these 3 8a's, this was after pill box btw. I find this rather unusual to come out in the woodwork now since he's been discussed b4 many times.

Nodder wasnt there.  Nodder has never climbed in the cave with Mr G.  Nodder was in the pub as it was decided that Mr G wasn't ready for James. 

The three 8a's thing has definatlly been mentioned to me before.  I am pretty sure it happened, although I have no video.   

[dave]

So we're all in agreement then.....

[c.j.d.]

Never really bothered to tell anyone, we just had a good scene on the rocks - hardly world importance, but relevant here.  Not climbed in the cave with him, so I'm guessing the 'he's shit in the cave' was a boozy comment in the Fricsan or similar.

[Doylo]

Panton said in his article that the Cave threw him a bit

[Johnny Brown]

It was probably the just scale of the place after Woodwell.

[benpritch]

Chris when I spoke to you about John a long time ago all you and nodder said was that you both saw him do undercut moves on his board which looked very hard and that he was shit in the cave, you never mentioned anything at all about climbing with him any other time or pissing these 3 8a's, this was after pill box btw. I find this rather unusual to come out in the woodwork now since he's been discussed b4 many times.
Also pritch has changed his story from him pissing some moves and looking like a gecko to pissing all of them, which is a different story I've heard from elsewhere.
Is time weighing heavy on your memories or Alzheimer's kicking in? I'm just saying this so people keep an open mind.

I may well have some age related mental problems but I never said he was pissing anything. He was definitely trying really hard , but at the same time doing very well. I will talk to Rich Heap who was there also and see if he can corroborate my story although he may well be as chronologically challenged as me. What's the story you have heard from 'elsewhere"?

[Doylo]

It was probably the just scale of the place after Woodwell.

Ha ha

What's the story you have heard from 'elsewhere"?

Micky and Scott told him G was a ghost ..

[Nemo]

Great to see some facts from c.j.d above.  He was obviously a seriously impressive climber. 

I also saw him years ago at the Tor - as Turboman said, you don’t go there as early as he was unless you’re properly psyched to get stuff done.  Along with what others have said and the level of detail provided at Almscliff 20 years after the event - I’m quite happy to believe what he says.  The point I was making above though is that no one really seems at all sure what HE says about some of his hard problems like Shadowplay.  He may well say it’s no longer climbable.  Whilst that’s the case I just think a lot of the arguments – whether Shadowplay is the hardest problem in the world etc – are pretty futile.  To me at least, it’s different from most controversies, in that what’s required to sort it isn’t proof – it’s just clarity about what the claims are.  Without that clarity, I fear the arguments will just run and run.

[a dense loner]

Ben you said, you had seen a lot of great climbers but nothing like him, that's not word for word people can check earlier in the thread if they feel it necessary.
If it looks like I'm on a witch hunt I'm certainly not, lest people forget it was me that first brought up bens quality b.gate story in response to a thread yrs ago when more doubts were flying around, quite possibly the bock thread.
What we've got here is me playing devils advocate to people who blindly believe or to Chris' story about him doing 3 8a's. People are coming on saying nice one Chris that's brilliant, boom. As if doing 3 8a's quickly counts as anything like proof for doing quite a few 8c's.
For people that don't know how hard 8c is, ie everyone apart from a couple in britain, the weaker Webb has flashed 8b, thrown laps on demand on desperanza 8b+/8c, done numerous 8b+ problems, flashed numerous 8a's etc and after all this still doesn't think he's capable of climbing 8c. This is not to compare people it's to give some scale of what's involved at such a level. For putting him as some kind of example he's gonna kill me.
Nemo why don't we need proof off John but we do off others? I'm intrigued

[Moo]

surely he won't kill you dense, or is it a star crossed lovers type thing?

[a dense loner]

I didn't actually mean that I'll beat the skinny fucker to death if he says anything but for the sake of all this everybody loves everybody zen shit I thought I'd do my bit, and it turns out he's younger than me so cos I've got a pma towards him I'm automatically a better climber. Win win

[Jim]

Yes, it seems like that cos someones come forward and said they've seen John do this and that, that automatically people start thinking, he must be a beast, how could we ever of doubted him etc...
Don't forget Simpson was also an absolute beast, but the evidence seems to stack up against him that he didn't do a lot of the things he'd claimed. I don't think there was much doubt he would of been physically capable, but just cos someone is a beast on the board (or even holding geometries) doesn't mean they've done anything.

Gaskins- I want to believe...

[dave]

The thing some people seem to be forgetting is there's a few things that separates the Gaskins from bullshitters people seem to be comparing him to:

- He doesn't seem to have every really sought publicity or operated in any climbing social circles where a bullshitter might feel the need to bullshit to look like the big man or impress people. Was never pushed in mag photos/adverts till relatively late in his career. To me this stacks up well in his favour, cos known bullshitters generally do it to gain fame/peer approval, all of which really seem to be lacking for Gaskins.
- He doesn't seem to have had anything to show for it in terms of material gain, i.e. free gear, boots, paid for climbing trips. Other bullshitters have had this and its clearly a motivator for the bullshitter, but all I can see Gaskins getting (correct me if I'm wrong) is boots from Boreal and a few mega-grip mats. And as far as I'm concerned this is more of a punishment than a reward, bearing in mind he will have been one of the top 10 climbers in the world at any time during his career. Its actually insulting how little material gain he will have got, but looks like he didn't pursue it. To me this again stacks up in his favour, as confirmed bullshitters (Si O aside as he's a mental) always seem to manage to cash-in.
- People have seen him climb stuff, and being strong, and whats more seen him do this over a period of 10-15 years. I doubt most bullshitters would have the patience to bullshit for this long and still get basically fuck-all recognition or free gear.

In conclusion, if he was a bullshitter he was fucking rubbish at it.