[tomtom]

Hello,
I've been invited on a field trip in late Jan - looking for caves in S.Tunisia... Which is really cool - and one thing I've been asked is to take piccies.. I've a ok dslr, (d5000) stock lens and Sigma 10-20mm (figure that might be handy) but have no idea about lighting them. Caverns and big spaces will be a feature I'm told.. My first thought was some sort of multi flash thingy, but I have no experience of this.. If this is viable, what kit would I need, is it pricey (will eBay help), is there any kit I can borrow? I can't carry loads of stuff (air baggage etc..) and any thoughts on how to do it etc...?
Maybe its best posed on uk caving.com.. But thought I'd ask here first....
T

[Durbs]

Depending on the style of photo, instead of multi/single-flash trickery, you could always just use a torch to "paint" the rock during a long exposure shot.

Flash would be more useful if you're shooting out of a cave mouth; i.e. from inside the cave out into the brighter outside.

[Bubba]

Maybe its best posed on uk caving.com..

You said it Tom...

http://ukcaving.com/board/index.php?board=21.0

[dave]

Either a ton of flashes if you want to get shots instantaneaously (well, given the time taken to set up each flash), or go with one flash and a decent tripod - set the camera on the tripod, then manually pop the flash to "paint" where you want the light. Will end up with shorter exposure times than doing it by torch as the flash has more power. After a few practice goes you will probably get the feel of it. The Sigma 10-20 should be ideal for caves.

One thing to watch for is that if firing the flash around at the same power setting, that anything drastically nearer the flash compared to the main subject will look a lot lighter because of inverse square law etc.

[tomtom]

Good words Dave... flash popped at low power in loads of spots to paint. Like it. Reccomendations for a half decent (but not £££) flash?

Might be worth investing in a decent but light tripod.. Any ideas (this has been on a recent thread yes?)

I'm part of the 'finding the caves in the first place' crew- so once we're in the nutcases can go exploring and I can eat my sandwiches and take pictures at leisure.. So should be plenty of time to experiment (tbh, taking pictures will probably stop me going mad while they snuffle around underground..)

[Johnny Brown]

Robbie Shone is the man to speak to, he ran a cave photography workshop in Buxton last year. I doubt you'll have chance to go on one before late Jan, though it might be worth dropping him an email or pm (I think he's on UKCaving).

You will need a tripod, and at least two flashes. Cheap manual guns will be as much use as expensive ones, ideally they'll need an optical slave to trigger, or you can buy some basic ones. For the really big caves you can get single use flash bulbs which burn for a second or two and throw out a lot of light.

Either way, get the flashes off camera, but keep them out of shot. If they are in front of you this means hiding them behind people or stalagmites. The classic trick seems to be to get one flash off to the side of the camera to light the foreground, and another behind your main subject caver lighting further objects and giving separation to the caver.

I think the main problem is getting your gear in and out without it getting wet, or muddy, or both. Caves trash cameras. Peli cases are probably a minimum.

[dave]

a good choice for manual flashes is something like a couple of old Nikon SB-24s - you can generally get them second hand for £30-50, good power but also got a pretty accurate auto feature for normal family photo shit.

http://www.ffordes.com/search/sb24

[tomtom]

Thanks Gents. Food for thought. Not having done any long exposure shizzle since the days of film - is it just trial and error for getting exposure right?

[Johnny Brown]

Yeah. Except that with digital its a piece of piss as you can just check the histogram. Don't be tempted just to look at the screen as chances are it'll be so dark it'll look great even if you've chronically underexposed.

[tomtom]

And I can use wireless flash triggers - just seen a kit on eBay, trigger and two slaves £30... Cool. Couple of Gorillapods for the flashes..

[tomtom]

Yeah. Except that with digital its a piece of piss as you can just check the histogram. Don't be tempted just to look at the screen as chances are it'll be so dark it'll look great even if you've chronically underexposed.

Ah - this is new to me.. Histogram is the histogram of balance of colours etc.. Ie the graph on the display...

[SamT]

Get in touch with 'Rob' over on UKcaving.  Rob Eavis was Robbie Shones understudy.  Robbie has now moved to Austria, but Rob lives in Tideswell and thus more available.  Without wanting to speak for him, I'm sure he might be open to an underground trip to show you a few techniques etc. In fact - he may be persuaded to run another workshop ..

http://ukcaving.com/board/index.php?topic=13142.0

See his work here..

http://www.flickr.com/photos/rob_eavis/sets/

He's a big fan of Light Painting (or S.I.T. - what ever that stands for)  i.e. long exposures and using your caving lamp to fill in the dark bits.  I think its a little more forgiving than underground flash photography which can be quite techy and a bit hit and miss.

I've tried a bit of underground photography, Its a black art I tell yee ( )

[Bubba]

Robbie Shone is the man to speak to, he ran a cave photography workshop in Buxton last year. I doubt you'll have chance to go on one before late Jan, though it might be worth dropping him an email or pm (I think he's on UKCaving).

He is on ukcaving but doesn't check in that often so is probably easiest to get in touch with via Twitter: https://twitter.com/robbieshone 

As Sam says, Rob might be a better bet as Mr Shone is now living in Lederhosen-Land.

Caves trash cameras. Peli cases are probably a minimum.

Mud, grit, water, moisture/humidity will plague you. In my limited experience I found a Peli case to be great protection; very strong and they float.  Be sure to pack plenty of stuff to dry and clean your hands with; first time I went down I had clean cameras but hands caked with mud and nowhere to clean them.

[Paul B]

And I can use wireless flash triggers - just seen a kit on eBay, trigger and two slaves £30... Cool. Couple of Gorillapods for the flashes..

Careful which triggers you buy its a bit of a minefield. I'd suggest YN 603s. I'd imagine in a cave an optical backup would be a very sensible option.

You can also merge multiple single exposure images which removes the potential error of hitting the same area twice. Its simple to do and used a lot on cars etc. simply load all of the exposures as layers and select 'lighten' as the blend mode. Done. Obviously if you miss a bit you're a bit screwed!

[Obi-Wan is lost...]

Flash has always been the way to do this, but i imagine one of these new super bright bike lights might also be fun to have a go with. You can get one from £30 on eBay. Just search for 'cree'

[tomtom]

Thanks Paul, Sam, Bubb, Obi. Caves are dry iirc.. (Desert..) remote trigger needed for camera?

[Paul B]

pick the correct YN 603s and you'll get that lead with it. The triggers are the same, its simply a 3 pin to CANIKON connector.

[Obi-Wan is lost...]

Thanks Paul, Sam, Bubb, Obi. Caves are dry iirc.. (Desert..) remote trigger needed for camera?

I imagine one of these would be a fuck all well spent...
http://pages.ebay.com/link/?nav=item.view&id=290827179767

[georgenorth]

Darren drums are a good cheap alternative to peli cases. Just make sure that the opening is big enough to take the camera. If the caves are walk-in type affairs then you shouldn't need to bother, but if there's crawling and thrutching then they'll stop you kit getting bashed. Line them with foam to things rattling. http://www.inglesport.com/caving/caving-gear/dry-bags-and-waterproof-containers/darren-drum.html

[Bubba]

I can probably lend you an SLR sized Peli Case Tom. 

* I think it will do, I used to use it with an old Sony digicam that was a bit smaller than an SLR.

[SamT]

see http://ukcaving.com/board/index.php?topic=13441.0

and

http://ukcaving.com/board/index.php?topic=9958.0

Rob Eavis rates the RF-602's highly, Robbie shone points out that they can reduce battery life quickly, and being a professional, uses these - http://www.calumetphoto.co.uk/eng/product/pocketwizard_plus_ii_wireless_transceiver/703-195a (ouch)

[Paul B]

see http://ukcaving.com/board/index.php?topic=13441.0

and

http://ukcaving.com/board/index.php?topic=9958.0

Rob Eavis rates the RF-602's highly, Robbie shone points out that they can reduce battery life quickly, and being a professional, uses these - http://www.calumetphoto.co.uk/eng/product/pocketwizard_plus_ii_wireless_transceiver/703-195a (ouch)

The 602s use an awkward battery at the camera end which is usually a bit screwed when you buy it. The 603s are transceivers so you can use either part as either part and work off AAAs. I've never had the same experience with either model.

The trigger market moves pretty darn fast (or has done over the last few years) and there is now a lot of reliable functionality to be had for (relatively) very little. People have been put off by the old (lower frequency) ebay type models which were a bit shit it seems.

I can see why people go down the pocket wizard route (with the old ones, not the new ones where you need to wrap your Cannon flashes in foil so they work!) but for anyone where the odd fail (N.b. mine have never let me down) PWs are just throwing unnecessary cash at a situation, plus they're bloody huge in comparison.

[Johnny Brown]

Whilst we're on the subject, I've got a couple of old manual guns that are going in the bin unless anyone wants them. One is quite big, the other fairly small but has a handy pc cord built in. Can post a pic if anyone's keen.

[SamT]

The trigger market moves pretty darn fast (or has done over the last few years) and there is now a lot of reliable functionality to be had for (relatively) very little

I'm sure your right, Robs had his a couple of years now.. I guess
 
horses * courses / budget = result.

 

[psychomansam]

Peli cases are fairly infamous for 'waterproofing'. You may need a bit of modding and care...

Shone took his brand new DSLR to PNG and flooded it in a peli at the start of the trip. Insured, but still...

[Bubba]

Probably worth testing such cases before putting valuable kit inside.  My Peli was fine with being floated across lakes and submerged whilst doing Croesor-Rhosydd but if I started to use it again (it's pretty old now) then I'd be testing it in the bath first

[Paul B]

Whilst we're on the subject, I've got a couple of old manual guns that are going in the bin unless anyone wants them. One is quite big, the other fairly small but has a handy pc cord built in. Can post a pic if anyone's keen.

model no / Trigger voltage?

[Johnny Brown]

Prinz PRO-990C and Sunpak auto124. No idea on voltage, feel free to research as I said they are no use to me.

[Paul B]

I'll pas, they both seem to have a high trigger voltage and thus will likely cook my triggers.

[Johnny Brown]

On the other hand they both have big test buttons so are ideal for getting your mate to fire down a cave.

[Paul B]

On the other hand they both have big test buttons so are ideal for getting your mate to fire down a cave.

I take it they don't have optical slave modes? (again probably not shit down a cave).

[tomtom]

Sorry for not getting the hint JB, is it possible for me to nab one or two?

[Johnny Brown]

Yes. please do. Are you in Sheffield? Drop me a pm.

[Johnny Brown]

The trigger market moves pretty darn fast (or has done over the last few years) and there is now a lot of reliable functionality to be had for (relatively) very little. People have been put off by the old (lower frequency) ebay type models which were a bit shit it seems.

Just to reopen this, any up to date knowledge on triggers? 603s still the best bet? What about the Phottix Strato? Ta!

[dave]

I got a set of Strato IIs a few weeks back - seem pretty fucking good, no misfures but I've only used them for family shit so far. Quailty is high - a world apart from the cheap chinese shite of a few years back. Come and check mine out any time.

[dave]

I tell lie - this masterpiece was done with them.

I had scouse walk to the car carrying the flash and it kept firing for a long way.

[Johnny Brown]

Nice one. Where did you get them, and how many fuck-alls can I expect to be relieved of?

[dave]

Got them from amazon via a seller called "great western cameras" - no problems and they were the cheapest I could find without ordering from honkers. I think I paid a shade over a ton for a basic set plus an additional receiver - i.e. enough for a camera and two lights.

[tomtom]

I should follow up my OP, sadly my trip to Tunisia was cancelled.. At the last minute our permissions/guides/guards for the trip to the south didnt come through - so my part of the trip was cut out thanks for the advice though..

[SA Chris]

Resurrection! Thinking about getting a radio remote trigger for a flash gun, are the above ones mentioned still best to look at, or is there anything out there that is reliable, but not silly money (was hoping to spend £30 to 50 if possible).

Ta.