[Will Hunt]

Why would you want to consign Labour to the history books?

Because he's a Tory scrote 
What he perhaps hasn't considered is the long term historical context of left vs right in this country. Look at this picture and what do you see?


There are generally more lefties in this country than fascist Tories but our vote is split between parties. If the left united against the right, or the right was split, left wing governments would be in power more often. If Scotland stay then it's "Hello UKIP" and goodbye Conservatives! Especially seeing as the LDs are going to get wiped out in the next general election. United left and split right. Get your red flags out.

[Johnny Brown]

In the last forty years I see more of a move from two party politics to three or more. Surprised we haven't had more coalition governments. Looks to me we are headed to a more European situation where governments can only form through alliances. Not sure that bodes too well for your red flags...

[Sloper]

Why would you want to consign Labour to the history books?

Because he's a Tory scrote 
What he perhaps hasn't considered is the long term historical context of left vs right in this country. Look at this picture and what do you see?


There are generally more lefties in this country than fascist Tories but our vote is split between parties. If the left united against the right, or the right was split, left wing governments would be in power more often. If Scotland stay then it's "Hello UKIP" and goodbye Conservatives! Especially seeing as the LDs are going to get wiped out in the next general election. United left and split right. Get your red flags out.

Do you really think that there's a 'left' left?

The historic battles of Labour have been fought and generally won: i.e. worker's rights, equal treatment on the grounds of gender & etc and they've abandoned the policy of common ownership and adopted many of what would once have been described as 'one nation' Tory policies and some that Thatcher would have considered too authoritarian (ID cards, detention without charge for 90 days) and embraced the market in a way that Thatcher would not have considered, tuition fees, sale of the post office, air traffic control and so on.

As for the GE, there' an interesting debate as to the likely effect of UKIP and the Greens in the GE.

There will be seats like Norwich South where The Greens can mount a real challenge as the keep Labour out option and places like Rotherham and Doncaster where UKIP will push Labour hard and with the backing of Tories could see some real shocks.

As for the Tory / UKIP marginals I can't see too many Labour supporters voting UKIP and I can see the 'vote UKIP get Milliband' message combined with the message that 'only the Tories can deliver a referendum on Europe' is likely to see a lot of UKIP voters moving back to the Tories.

UKIP also have the next 6 months to keep a lid on their 'swivel eyed' tendency which is going to come under increasing scrutiny.

Then there's the economy, Labour is simply not trusted to run the economy and then there's Ed Miliband.

But returning to your point about the numbers of lefties, they tend to get about .1% of the vote, so even if the Alliance for Worker's Liberty, Communist League, Communist Party of Britain, Communist Party of Britain (Marxist Leninist), Communist Party of Great Britain (M-L), Communist Party of Great Britain (Provisional Central Committee), Democratic Labour Party, Independent Working Class Association, International Socialist League, Left Unity, New Communist Party, Peace and Progress Party, Revolutionary Communist Party, Socialist Equality Party, Socialist Party of Greta Britain, Socialist People's Party, Socialist Workers Party, Worker's Revolutionary Party were all combined, they'd still lose their deposit in one seat.

Quite simply the British people know what socialism will bring and they don't want anything to do with it.

[Sloper]

Why would you want to consign Labour to the history books?

Well let's see, every time they form the government the economy is in a mess when they leave, unemployment higher than when they took office and then there's the authoritarian streak two pretty good reasons in my book.

[Johnny Brown]

They did give us the CRoW act though, access and conservation issues are going currently backwards fast. A permanent Tory government would be a disaster for anyone who enjoys recreation in the outdoors.

[webbo]

They also gave us lots of Olympic cycling gold medals and ultimately our first Tour de France winner.

[Sloper]

And civil partnerships (a shame they bottled actually allowing gay men and lesbians to marry due to the Opus Dei nutters in Cabinet) which despite the criticism was a major step forward, the national minimum wage has had the effect of pulling down what would otherwise been a differential above the NMW to the NMW, and the NMW in London isn't as adequate as the NMW in other parts of the country.

However if we take a debits and credits approach there are the following:

1. The tripartite regulatory systems of the banks which was a catastrophic policy failure,
2. Running a structural deficit in the very good years.
3. Merging HMRC & IR against all advice,
4. A massive ramping up of PFI
5. The disastrous working families tax credits which were a fraudsters dream,
6. ID cards and the erosion of civil liberties
7. Tuition fees,
8. The invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq,
9. The corruption which on any reasonable measure was far more widespread and serious than Tory Sleaze.
10. Privatisations BNFL, UKAEA , NAATS, Quintec, all of which have a strategic importance through to the mundane directory enquiries.
11. Academy schools including those that taught creationism in 'science'
12. massively expanded the use of private sector treatment sectors in the NHS
13. Introduced many of the reforms to welfare that those on the left now decry, i.e. they introduced 'the Bedroom tax' 'work capability assessments and contracted with ATOS, 'workfare'

So in retrospect, I can't remember having that many problems going climbing before CROW and CROW hasn't allowed access to Vixen Tor either.

So in short, 13 years of Labour rule and you've got CROW, the NMW and a step towards equality for gay men and lesbians, on the scales against the above, was it really worth it?

[Sloper]

They also gave us lots of Olympic cycling gold medals and ultimately our first Tour de France winner.

I think you'll find that that was a combination of the National Lottery and in respect of cycling Sky.

[webbo]

I think you might find the talent spotting in schools using lottery funding was a Blair initiative and lottery funding came in to its own under Labour. Also given that he was also in bed with Murdoch might explain the Sky link.

[miso soup]

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/sep/02/scots-independence-england-scotland

[Sloper]

Thanks, that's put the complicity in torture and extraordinary rendition and the invasion of Iraq into perspective.

[dave]

Sloper you're so full of shit mate I don't even know where to start!

[Sloper]

Sloper you're so full of shit mate I don't even know where to start!

That's right you don't know where to start: you don't have any grasp of the issues, you don't have any knowledge of the subject or any rhetorical skills, in fact about the only thing you've got a grasp of is the depth of your own ignorance.

But still, if you ask a grown up you might be able to come up with a half decent insult.

Frankly you're pathetic.

[dave]

the only thing you've got a grasp of is the depth of your own ignorance.

Tough words from the man who clearly has only a grasp on his own cock, whilst reading back his own posts to himself, wallowing ecstatically in his perceived sense of loathsome smug tory superiority until a thimble full of fetid tory gunk drips into a fistfull of tissues. And as you catch a glimpse of your own drained vacant face reflected in the laptop screen a wave of inadequacy washes you back into your otherwise empty moribund existence as an unwelcome self-parodying web antagonist.

In summary; fuck off.

[webbo]

Thanks, that's put the complicity in torture and extraordinary rendition and the invasion of Iraq into perspective.

Personally I believe this would happen under any goverment. However I like that we now have a cycling structure that is the envy of continental Europe and they have now had to change the rules to stop us winning so many track medals.
P.s. I think you have upset Dave.

[erm, sam]

unwelcome self-parodying web antagonist

Boom!

[Sloper]

the only thing you've got a grasp of is the depth of your own ignorance.

Tough words from the man who clearly has only a grasp on his own cock, whilst reading back his own posts to himself, wallowing ecstatically in his perceived sense of loathsome smug tory superiority until a thimble full of fetid tory gunk drips into a fistfull of tissues. And as you catch a glimpse of your own drained vacant face reflected in the laptop screen a wave of inadequacy washes you back into your otherwise empty moribund existence as an unwelcome self-parodying web antagonist.

In summary; fuck off.

It's hard not to feel superior when one's comparator is quite so ignorant and pathetic, I see you resort to abuse, but even that is deeply inadequate,

In summary, do stay around, it gives me something to laugh at, in an unpleasant sneering Tory manner of course.

Anyway back on topic, it seems that the polls are now showing a narrow lead for the 'Yes' campaign.
 

[Sloper]

Thanks, that's put the complicity in torture and extraordinary rendition and the invasion of Iraq into perspective.

Personally I believe this would happen under any goverment. However I like that we now have a cycling structure that is the envy of continental Europe and they have now had to change the rules to stop us winning so many track medals.
P.s. I think you have upset Dave.

Yes, but it didn't happen under a Tory government, imagine if I said the miner's strike and everything that went with it would have happened under any government: I think we both know that people would be saying 'bollocks' (and they'd be right.

Yes, I think Dave is upset.

[tomtom]

Well, whether or not its a yes or no vote - I would say that  the concessions now being offered by the No camp mean that Alex Salmond and the SNP have scored a massive coup.

A superb bit of political brinksmanship it would appear... If it is actually a Yes vote then what happens in the long term might or might not be too flash - but in terms of ground gained etc...

Solper - if there where no lefties to troll what would you do???

[SA Chris]

I would say that  the concessions now being offered by the No camp mean that Alex Salmond and the SNP have scored a massive coup.

Quite. The tipping point in the polls couldn't have been better timed; just gives time to make the concessions offered have an effect.

[Sloper]

There's a reasonable argument that the concessions offered now will do nothing than bolster the Yes campaign.

The SNP have some very skilled political operators (as opposed to the No campaign who don't) and I would be very surprised if the Yes campaign hasn't got a few spectacular things up their sleeve for the last 10 days.

Turn out will be key, while I can imagine the Yes voters will turn out in any event, I can see the No voters being less committed, a horrid cold and wet day could swing it to Yes.

[tc]

A win against Germany today would definitely swing it to "yes". History is full of random and seemingly trivial events causing massive changes. And there's nothing more random and trivial than Scottish football.

[Sloper]

While I don't profess to know anything about football, I agree that there could well be some random factors which might have a significant affect,  I'd not be surprised if there's a scandal (on either side) embargoed until the Sunday papers

[webbo]

Thanks, that's put the complicity in torture and extraordinary rendition and the invasion of Iraq into perspective.

Personally I believe this would happen under any goverment. However I like that we now have a cycling structure that is the envy of continental Europe and they have now had to change the rules to stop us winning so many track medals.
P.s. I think you have upset Dave.

Yes, but it didn't happen under a Tory government, imagine if I said the miner's strike and everything that went with it would have happened under any government: I think we both know that people would be saying 'bollocks' (and they'd be right.

Yes, I think Dave is upset.

No but didn't they invade the Falklands and sink the Belgrano when it was outside the exclusion zone. All just to win an election, seems fair.

[Sloper]

1. The Argentinians invaded the Falklands,
2. The sinking of the Belgrano was and is highly contentious in terms of its legailty / jusitification.
3. I think we've agreed whataboutery is pretty puerile and demeaning