[Fultonius]

Ok, before I even start this is in no-way a reference to Mina's ascent of Mecca. All I can say about that is AMAZING ACHIEVEMENT   

But, it seems like on a lot of routes, knee bars are "being found" in places where they must have been missed before. It seems like knee-bars are a bit of a new thing.

I managed to sneak a knee-bar in while on the verge of pumping out on Rat Race at Dunkeld on Saturday. (until I noticed a shift of body position could get a hands-off rest without the kneebar...)

Anyway, I was pondering as to why old skool gnarlers hadn't spotted the benefits of a good ol'knee wedge. Or did they?

[andy_e]

Why has it always been that even using knees for anything is seen as cheating? Anything goes as far as I'm concerned! I recently used a knee to good effect on a problem when smearing my foot wasn't an option without 6 months of yoga, so I smeared my knee instead, and I got the problem. Cheating? Whatever.

[Doylo]

My dad told me knees were cheating when I started climbing. For me it's the kneepads that are Nu Skool not the knees. I ve been amazed how the most minor knee scum can take your weight with a tight rubber pad. It feels like a whole new world of opportunity

[dave]

I've been knee-barring and getting shit for it since before it was trendy.

[Wood FT]

I ve been amazed how the most minor knee scum can take your weight with a tight rubber pad

Those who saw Barrows doing Bear Claw on Pinches Wall as such will stand by this statement

[Fultonius]

I've been knee-barring and getting shit for it since before it was trendy.

You must be some kind of knee-barring hipster 

[Doylo]

I ve been amazed how the most minor knee scum can take your weight with a tight rubber pad

Those who saw Barrows doing Bear Claw on Pinches Wall as such will stand by this statement

I did wonder how he did that, kneepads on pinches wall 

[moose]

Old school climbers knew of knee-bars but dismissed them as the work of Satan.  As simple God-fearing folk they thought taking weight off with cushioned knee-pads during an activity as frivolous as climbing was mocking the serious business of kneeling on hassocks in Church. 

[Nibile]

Old school climbers knew of knee-bars but dismissed them as the work of Satan.

If you put on a 5.10 kneepad inside out you'll evoke Satan.

[Nibile]

Anyway Doylo's right. Kneebars are not new school, Fred Nicole uses one on La Danse in an old video. The pads are new school.

[abarro81]

I'm not sure pads are even that new school, the Americans have been using them for years, they're just fairly new to Europe and particularly the UK.

The pinches wall scum wasnt actually that useful in the end, but hopefully it pissed a few people off.

[Drew]

Are people seriously suggesting that the kneebar's main protagonist Big George Smith is nu-skool?

[Johnny Brown]

Has nobody got time to upload a copy of the faggotry piece from The Thing? I suspect Nic was joking, but a whole generation seemed to take it 100% seriously...

[tomtom]

When did heels appear on the scene?

[GCW]

When I started climbing, it was the law to wear tweed and climb statically with three points of contact. 

Egyptians, arm/ knee bars, heel hooks, foot locks etc are all old techniques, but aren't always obvious unless you are actually seeking them out.  I have a photo of me in Font in 1990 doing a knee bar, and I'd seen them used waaaay before that.

I think some things are obvious eg crimping.  Others, like knee bars may not occur to people unless told about them.  I would agree that knee pads are changing things, but they do make sense.

[Muenchener]

I think some things are obvious eg crimping. 

Dunno. I grew up on brick edge walls e.g. Manchester Uni MacDougall Centre, but very rarely use a full crimp. This is probably why I (a) am a weak punter but also (b) have a relatively injury-free climbing history.

[Fultonius]

Is it just a classic case of ignorance of history, re-inventing the wheel and cyclical fashions?

That, combined with the improvement gained by the use of pads has seen the recent rise to prevalence of the hallowed knee-bar?

I still remember being shown the wonders of the heel-toe cam by Paul Savage on the DR boulder wall at GCC...

[Jaspersharpe]

As people have said, it's an equipment thing. I remember us all using a folded beer towel strapped to the leg to get a kneebar in on Chimes. Trouble was the skinnier your legs, the less it worked, the more it hurt and the more the thing slipped off rendering the bar pretty crap. Then Malcolm flashed it without the kneebar and we shook our heads and went back to Powerband.

So people became more inventive and made better pads using old shoes etc and kneebars became more effective and now 5.10 have gone a step further and made something specifically designed for the technique. It's no surprise that more opportunities to use the kneebar arise when you have equipment deigned for that purpose.

The same goes for heels. It's not as if heel hooking was invented recently either but as shoes have become better and better the number of places you can use a heel to effect becomes greater. We joke about faggotry and cheating (and of course anyone using a heel or toehook  on a board should be shot) but it's just that a lot of heel use nowadays wouldn't have been possible in a pair of Arsolo Runouts. I used to think I was just shit at heel hooks when I returned to climbing and saw the amount of heel use going on. Then I got some decent shoes and realised it wasn't that hard to learn (not sure how this will work now I have a heel full of metal but still....).

Actually as GCW mentions egyptians the same rules apply. I remember when the drop knee became big news and again it was all to do with improvement in shoes = being able to stand on smaller stuff and twist in with the outside edge without your clumpy toed Fire popping off (before people go on about what Jerry / Johnny etc did in shit shoes I'm talking about improvements for the majority).

This is just progress, it doesn't mean that old skoolers didn't see or attempt the techniques it's just that the kit for doing so is way better nowadays. So as the kit gets better people practice the techniques more and get more inventive about how they climb. It's all good and if it means that some things become easier, so what. If it's a route the grade might change and if it's a problem you have an eliminate/original version and an easier/new version. It also means a lot of new things get climbed that would have been impossible / 3 grades harder and not done for years. Progress.

[moose]

I think some things are obvious eg crimping.  Others, like knee bars may not occur to people unless told about them.

Crimping was a learned technique for me; even now, I have to consciously think "thumbs!" to engage the crimp and feel a flood of renewed strength just as my open grip is slipping.  Knee-bars, knee-scums, heel hooks are instinctive for me - I often accidentally fall into them. 

I suspect this is because I'm a lanky git. My long thin fingers don't naturally form a crimp very well but my long, boney legs often fortuitously wedge on protrusions.  For me to physically fit in a position whilst using the same footholds as a shorter person, I often have to heel-hook a hold that is normally toed - just a simple matter of accommodating leg-length without becoming uncomfortably bunched.

[TobyD]

As people have said, it's an equipment thing.
...
Progress.

Nicely put. I find most things like this come naturally - if you watch monkeys climbing they often use climbing 'techniques' like lay-backing, knee-barring or crimping, and I'd be if anyone had given them detailed instructions on what to do. The gear just makes little bits of technique count for more.

Actually having said that about the monkeys, perhaps they do read technique articles: quite a few seem to inhabit the other channel so maybe they pay attention to the stuff on there?

[abarro81]

I suspect this is because I'm a lanky git.

That's the opposite of my experience as a lanky git - crimping seems fairly intuitive to me, whereas heels and knees are very much something I've had to learn.

[Plattsy]

I suspect this is because I'm a lanky git.

That's the opposite of my experience as a lanky git - crimping seems fairly intuitive to me, whereas heels and knees are very much something I've had to learn.

Wow! As a lanky git I find knee bars very intuitive and have had to learn crimping and heels. Aren't we all different. 

[slackline]

Perhaps because its got bugger all to do with your stature and more to do with how you think/visualise/see holds/routes/opportunities for knee-bars/rests.

I frequently find quick sneaky knee-bars on the low-grade trad routes I climb and enjoy using them for the sheer fun of taking both hands off (e.g. Eros at Millstone has one)....


Fooling around! by slack---line, on Flickr

[GCW]

Knee bars?  Old skool!




Relaxing in Font 2 by GCW666, on Flickr

[duncan]

Heel hooks?  Old Skool!




The adoption of non-intuitive techniques has been greatly facilitated by cheap video technology and the internet.