[bondosan]

i was looking at this the other day, never really looked at it before.
was there once a hold thats now been snapped off out left ?
there's a couple of smaller holds above it but i cant reach em.

[dave]

i think most people go off the ende and pocket on the right now.

[cofe]

i think most people go off the ende and pocket on the right now.

i think he means the sitter? i think there's an undercut and an edge and you try and get the RH edge. i think. then the hard move to the slopery-pinch thing.

this may all just be lies.

[Andy Harris]

There did use to be a very very small edge out left but it is now resident in my cupboard at home after me & John Welford snapped it off. Ben never used it on the 1st ascent but I think Jerry did. The move is much harder without it.

Andy

[Bubba]

after me & John Welford snapped it off.

What, you were both hanging off it  :D

[mark]

There did use to be a very very small edge out left but it is now resident in my cupboard at home after me & John Welford snapped it off. Ben never used it on the 1st ascent but I think Jerry did. The move is much harder without it.

Andy

Is this cupboard entirely devoted to broken holds?

[Andy Harris]

Johns a couple of grams heavier than me and if I remember correctly it was he who snapped it landing in a heap.

The cupboard does indeed contain a few other significant holds. Think this could be a pseudo interesting thread "FAMOUS HOLDS I OWN". I'll posta new thread.

Andy

[a dense loner]

it was he who snapped it landing in a heap.

good job rich was there. he could have hurt himself otherwise  :D

[c.j.d.]

Just read this one ( I know).  I heard a rumour that during that 'Roc Trip' thing, there was a bit of interest on this problem.  Does this mean that:

A)  Its still possible, and has been repeated since the loss of hold.
B)  Its still possible, but nobody's repeated it since loss of hold.
C)  Its not possible, but Jonny Foreigner had no idea it was   broken, leaving  
       Jonny Brown secretley sn**gering around the corner.

  It would be cool if A or B is the answer, as this is one of those 'always wanted to...' problems until a complete tool or uneducated youth smashed off the crimp.  Answers on a postcard!

[Ru]

I think it's...

D) the hold broke AFTER the roc-trip.

There's still a bit of hold left, meaning that it might still be possible, but the rock is still sandy and will probably crumble if used.

[Jim]

looks like another job for UKB's own flying bicycle/rock repair man and his bag of assorted elixiers and royal jelly's

[Bonjoy]

I'm not sure about this one. I could stablise it as it is at present. This would make a slightly gnarly edge, more positive than the original hold. It is pretty fragile though and would have to be fixed up with epoxy resin (same as the Domes footer, although i've got better at colour matching since then). Or I could us grit + resin to try and recreate the original hold (in which case if anyone had any pics, they would be useful). If left to nature it may or may not weather out to a usable hold in a few years. I don't really want to make the decision on this, as once treated it's fixed pretty much for good. I'm happy to do either if that's what folk wanted.

[Johnny Brown]

I think it should be left for at least a few years before anyone starts messing with it. Weathering takes time.

[cofe]

it's pretty obvious from looking at it that it's fucked since it was smashed up. let's let nature have a crack i say.

[al]

i agree, i am up for footholds being treated, stabalised and chips being filled etc, but don't think handholds should be repaired/rebuilt - you can't rebuild grit holds with synthetic resins, and whatever mix you use will react/erode differently to the rock around it.
it would also set a precendent to start fucking with handholds - might be ok on limestone, but grit is very delicate, and a treat to the eye. grey sika and resin (joker, row tor etc) isn't!

[Jim]

we better go and take the hold on joker/ the ace down then eh?

[Bonjoy]

I'll leave it then.
 Sticking a big jug back on is a long way from recrafting a hold I think.

[al]

sticking a big jug back on is a long way from recrafting a hold I think.

it is, i agree.
what i was getting at is what a mess they are now - could have been repaired much better (why use sika, it doesn't look anything like grit, use climbing hold mix with extra thixotropic gel/fillers and the right pigments. am sure lloyd, dan french, crispin would supply this)
the recrafting issue was relating to feel good etc. when the broken hold has gone, and you have to recreate what was there.

[Ru]

What's happened to Feel Good?

[al]

What's happened to Feel Good?

oh, my mistake ru, i meant sweet thing - nothing up with feel good (getting confused)

[Johnny Brown]

Apparently the hold on sweet thing has now been covered in some kind of paint??? Think Jim knows more.

[Bonjoy]

I'd just like to point out that whatever has been done to Sweet Thing is not my work.
 Al, I think you missunderstood my point. What I meant was, sticking the jug back on the Joker is arguably more justifiable because if done properly (it wasn't) it would restore the rock to pretty much exactly as it was before. Whereas fixing Sweet Thing would involved adding something which wasn't there before.
 BTW I don't use sika. If you have a look at the repair work I did on My Buddy the Apple (Rowtor), you'll see that I mixed grit and earth into the resin to get a good colour and textural match. Infact nobody has even noticed the repair unless it has been pointed out to them. I wouldn't dream of touching Sweet Thing unless sure I could make a very natural repair and would then only do so if it was the expressed wish of all concerned

[al]

Al, I think you missunderstood my point. What I meant was, sticking the jug back on the Joker is arguably more justifiable because if done properly (it wasn't) it would restore the rock to pretty much exactly as it was before. Whereas fixing Sweet Thing would involved adding something which wasn't there before.

i think i'm basically in agreement bonjoy, thats what i was getting at re. sweet thing, just that the job on the joker is shoddy  - also to be fair i havn't checked row tor stuff, other than the pictures here, it just looked like sika - didn't intend to offend, and am behind your maintenance work, it just needs each case to be sussed carefully thats all.

[dave]

If you have a look at the repair work I did on My Buddy the Apple (Rowtor), you'll see that I mixed grit and earth into the resin to get a good colour and textural match. Infact nobody has even noticed the repair unless it has been pointed out to them.

i was stood next to this for half an hour today and didn't notice the repair, even after lovejoy mentioning it to me 5 mins earlier. in my book thats a good repair.

the foothold on Domes to me isn't a bad job, its rock solid and doesn't effect the climbing. OK its not the same colour as the rock but fuck me lets not look a gift horse in the mouth, considering our activity of choice revolves around covering the rock with bright white powder i don't think we're in any position to complain about the colour!

hope the crimp on that 7b thing gets a good repair.

[a dense loner]

the holds on sweet thing have had something done to them and are disgusting. somebody is obviously trying to stabilise the rock but it looks shite. basically like rolf harris has gone to the crag with a tin of white paint

[Johnny Brown]

Had a look at sweet thing yesterday, will post pics when I get the chance.

A new hold has clearly been created by brushing the old one, this has then been sealed with something, not sure what, can't say it looked like white paint to me.

The whole problem was well chalked, so folk are obviously trying it. Unfortunately the repair is terrible, the rock is still crumbling where the edge of the flake was, and the crimp that has been dug out is nothing like the old one, more like a late eighties DR one. Sad.

[old cheese]

believe that the repair was done with a PVA solution. thought it looked like it when i saw it on sat. if this is the case it should clean up with time and being water soluble it will leave no lasting damage.

i guess we need some kind of concensus opinion on which problems should be tampered with and by who, with what. i heard that dense would love to chair the commitee with andi e as his assistant.

oh yeah, on the domes repair, would like to see how long this lasts as it seems a little un-bonded to the underlying layers of rock. it looks like it could come away in a big stinky lump. The repair on brads wall is in my humble opinion done with a far superior solution and even looks far less intrusive. Was this unsuitable for domes as the damage was more severe? me not understand?

[Lostboy]

me not understand?

Thats old age for you :wink:

[Bonjoy]

i guess we need some kind of concensus opinion on which problems should be tampered with and by who, with what. i heard that dense would love to chair the commitee with andi e as his assistant.

oh yeah, on the domes repair, would like to see how long this lasts as it seems a little un-bonded to the underlying layers of rock. it looks like it could come away in a big stinky lump. The repair on brads wall is in my humble opinion done with a far superior solution and even looks far less intrusive. Was this unsuitable for domes as the damage was more severe? me not understand?

 The stuff used on Brad's is only really suitable for small repairs.
 The repair on Domes should be pretty well bonded. I worked in the resin with a toothbrush for a fair length of time. This type of resin is used for fixing bolts into porous media and does soak into the rock around, according to the product datasheet. Having said that the underlying rock was extremely soft and sandy so who knows. It will certainly stay usable for longer than if left as it was. If it did break away after a few years it could be redone. This time if it was me doing it i'd have the experience to get a better colour match.
 Let's not forget what it was like before. Bear in mind, most of this damage had occured this season and the damage was rapidly advancing.


Now you've got this:

[Johnny Brown]

Pics of sweet thing as promised. As you can see, a new hold has been completely created - brushed or chipped - into the rock just below where the original hold was.

Original hold was just up and right where the scar of the flake is.


Any views? As said higher up, I'm not in favour of creating holds even in situations like this. However, too late, it has been done and, I think, done badly  :roll: The hold is bigger and much more positive than the original - not very nice though reminds me of a late eighties DR/ rockworks effort.
I'm not sure whether the pale area around the hold is a result of a stabiliser being applied or just vigorous brushing.

[Bonjoy]

For comparison, here's a pic of the hold shortly after it was chipped.

JBs pic

[chris]

are you going to investigate/repair the damage bonjoy? the other talked about repairs seem good, and even if the colour is not highly accurate it will surely stop further erosion or, hopefully, mindless attempts at repair work by other folk. its a good problem to boot and would be a shame if something wasn't done.

on another note; did anyone find out the culprit of the orignal chipping?

[dave]

that hold looks a fucking mess. someone should just cement the whole thing up and consign that problem to the history books.

[cofe]

this colour match talk is bollocks. the stuff bonjoy is using is about 10000 times better than neon orange fucked up rock. i could understand a beef if it was bright pink or some shit. well i couldn't actually; i quite like pink.

somone wants to chip a sinker jug in that sloper at the top or sweet thing. finish the job. fucks sake.

[al]

this colour match talk is bollocks

its a crucial, and easy part of hold repair to get right, and is often not acheived. bonjoy is obviously getting it right - just think its worth trying to get a close match

[Nigel]

Just spoke with Toni Simpson, apparantly it was him who varnished? the hold, to stop it crumbling any more. He also commented that Mick Adams has since climbed the problem recently.

Note to self, Log out of number 24's computer when using free internet.

[BenF]

Just spoke with Toni Simpson, apparantly it was him who varnished? the hold, to stop it crumbling any more. He also commented that Mick Adams has since climbed the problem recently.

I can confirm this and may I add that Mick does not in anyway condone the "fixing" of the hold.  He simply turned up, saw the fixed hold and climbed the problem in it's new state.  

That all may sound a bit trite, but I'm just making sure that Mick doesn't get any sh*t for the fixing job, it wasn't him and he didn't request it.

[Jacqusie]

Wow - what the fuck has been going on!?

Now call me stupid - but I thought initially Sweet things crimp was vandalised & now I read it was pulled off??

The repair work looks okay & but is it better than the mess left?

What I would ask you guys on here is that anyone seeing this stuff could feed it back to me as I'm not able to see every hold on every boulder problem thats an issue.

From a BMC point of view, the erosion thats been happening & the staberliser thats been used is still at an experimental stage both on the eastern & western side of the Peak. The chips that have been taken out have only just been given the go ahead to treat in a small area (eg RHS)

I'm acutely aware that chips have in the past been filled in sensitively & I'm not saying that it shouldn't be happening (i've been lobbying for well over a year at meetings) but maybe there should be a census on those doing it - i.e - Jon, Al and myself - just so we can track whats happening & I can report back to the BMC Access team in favourable circumstances with positive before and after results?

sorry to sound a tad beauracratic - but these issues are on the CEO's agenda at the BMC & he does really care about the state of the boulders, so please, any info - could you send to me at simon.jacques@btinternet.com.

Cheers all

Simon
BMC Peak Bouldering Access Rep

[dave]

Now call me stupid - but I thought initially Sweet things crimp was vandalised & now I read it was pulled off??

you're stupid. where did you read that?

the holds were vandalised last year and now have been "treated" which has seemed to include sculping that busted hold to make it better. Broken hold or not this is chipping. That problem should have been left, we should have takin it on the chin as a classic lost, maybe in 50 years it would have been climbable again, who knows, who cares. its not the fact that the hold has been treated with sealant or whatever that is the issue, its the fact that it was chipped back into a hold before being sealed. For fucks sake its not france, you can't remedy chipping with more chipping. 2 wrongs don't make a right, they make a double wrong.

[Jacqusie]

whooa, whoaa  - less of the hostility - I'm on your side!

The confusion was that Andy Harris stated that John Welford pulled a hold off Sweet Thing & I was just trying to confirm (or not) that it was the "bashed" hold

Its not that easy to diceminate between the 2 when you have a 1st read of all the postings.

I'm concerned as much as you are about the re-modeling of the hold & who did it. I'm just interested in the practice that has taken place on the problem, and if it has been chipped before work on it - you are dead right - its out of order.

I'll have a look this weekend - I'm just asking for you guys on here to help feeding back to the BMC who are very passionate about this practice & whats going on in regards to Peak bouldering.

Apolos if it came about in the wrong way

Cheers

Si

[dave]

you did ask me to call you stupid.....no hostility intended, was just my sense of humour i'm afraid.

the hold harris was on about i think was some tiny crimp way over left that broke off years ago, don't think it made any real difference to the problem though. this is not the same crimp as is being dicussed here.

[fashionguru]

Hi All,


Just like to point out that yes it was me that treated the hold and the reasons behind this are as follows.

This is my local crag and as such have seen a lot of vandalism and aslo usage of certain problems at both RHS and Cratcliffe. I was there the day before the vandalism to sweat thing and was trying the problem at the time. I have then watch in disgust sometimes the wear that others have made trying the problems since the hod was damaged. I took the decission to strop the wear / damage going any further by stabalising the rock using a watered down UPVa sol.
This has caused  the clean rock around the hold but this will fade in time as the lichen etc. grows back.

I believe that although the hold is bigger than before (I would like to point out that I and or Mike Adams had nothing to do with the erosion of the hold wether it be from brushing or digging out) it is in a slightly differnt place and slightly lower so the difficulty of the climbing according to Mike is somewhere around the same give or take a little.

I would also like to point everyone in the direction of about 6 other problems I treated that day and subsequentley as with sweat thing cleaned up 2 days later. Jerry's Arete. Many probs at crat top boulders where all the chipping occured and of course the overhanging arete which someone keeps cipping the foothold out  when the last one has dissapeared.

I want the areas and problems I love so much to be around in the next 10 years but without such work doing to these things the erosion be natural but mainly man made will leave these problems unclimbable and the damage will look a dam site worse.

Please think what a mess SWEAT THING would have looked when the hold (that you so blatentley do not like) was worn right back to the start of the flake. A BIG BROWNY ORANGE MESS.

TONY SIMPSON

[Jacqusie]

cool - thanks - that clears it up a bit for me ta..

We are keen to now start any remedial work that needs doing on the chips on the boulders in the Peak & have been in touch with Jon & Al  - suggestions would be good for area's / problems that need the "filling in" treatment on a trial basis.

Any help would be appreciated on the best places / problems that are the most in need. What we don't want is a full scale sika rampage by boulderers thats already been given the thumbs down on here. What I wasn't aware of was some people working out there doing repairs & appreciate the feedback.

Tony - I appreciate your honesty  - please could you get in touch & we can talk about this & sort what has happened & what maybe needs to happen from now on as far as our stance on this applies?

Cheers much

Si

[BenF]

All fair points Tony, thanks for coming on line and explaining what you've done.

Just to clarify things Tony, I wasn't having a dig at you in my post, I just meant to explain where Mick fits into all this mess.  Sorry if my post sounded like I was trying to make a point (re-reading it today I can see it may well have read that way).  I really wasn't intending to stir at all.

[dave]

went and had a good look at this today. the hold that exists now feels loads better than the original - the photos already posted on this thread don't do it justtice to how big it is. it really is massive now.

secondly I am pretty sure that this hold came about due to wirebrushing. if you look close at the hold there are the telltale scratch lines of a wirebrush (just like on brad pit etc). I don't think this can be done with just a toothbrush, a tooshbrush on soft rock may knock grans from the rock but not sctually gouge lines out of it for each bristle.

thirdy it doesn't look like whatever this hold was treated with is any good. I just went up and had a feel of the hold stoood on the floor in trainers and even then i had bits of the hold coming off in my hands, you can see on the hold a slightly darker bit where its going sandy again. This hold either needs totoally cementing up (and the problem consigning to the history books) or treating properly with something pike lovejoy's magic jizz. At the moment its going to give people the impression its stable enough to pull on, but its actually still wearing away.

[ferret]

in reply to tony

i dont care if its yor local crag or not, YOU DO NOT HAVE THE RIGHT TO SIMPLY START MAKING REPAIRS TO A SENSITIVE AREA WITHOUT CONSULTING OTHERS. especially as i imagine youve read this thread previously and know that alot of people thought it should be left alone. Bonjoys made some excellent repairs, but we are potentially setting a dangerous precedent for fucking around with the rock we all love.
Personally i think we need some sort of open discussion ( preferably not on the net) to decide who has the right to repair a problem, and what constitutes a problem that needs repairing.

[Bonjoy]

 There was a discusion of sorts at a peak area BMC meeting last year. Unfortunately most of the people present were incredibly ill informed about the issue and bouldering in general for that matter. It really wasn't very useful. What little time was alocated to the issue was mostly spent trying to explain the basics of the situation (i.e. Resin in this context is not the same as pof; yes erosion does occur on grit, not just pollish; most erosion is through normal use, rather than chipping and wire brushing) Unless boulderers suddenly decide to start getting involved in BMC meetings or form their own commity or whatever, there isn't a suitable (none internet) forum out there to tackle this.
 From my perspective I thought I had done all I practically could as far as consultation goes. Over several year I had had several internet discusions on private and public forums, discussed action at the area BMC meeting, spoken on the subject with relevant BMC officials, spoken with lots of active local boulderers. Short of voting on a subject it eventually comes down to an individual deciding that they have garnered enough opinion to constitute a consensus. Climbing does not have a leader and there is no one who has a final all powerful say so at the end of the day. At some point you have to make the decision to get on with doing something, or do nothing and possibly let things get ruined.  I fully believe for example that if I had not sorted the foothold on Domes, it would now be pretty much beyond repair (short of major reconstruction) and a classic problem spoilled.

[ferret]

a good response john, im not against wot uv done, just think we need to find a way to discuss potential repairs before acting, from wot yor saying youve tried and no such thing currently exisits in any significant form.

think this is a sensitive area worthy of further discussion so im gonna move it from this random thread to the bouldering section.