[mr__j5]

This is quite an interesting (if long) read that brings together a lot of articles, and asks a lot of questions about the testing or lack thereof that Armstrong was subjected to before his cancer.  http://cavalierfc.tumblr.com/post/30172302298/its-not-about-the-bike

From a quick explore of info I can find, out-of-competition testing wasn't introduced until 1997.
Lance was diagnosed in Oct 1996
His previous event podium was in Spring 1996, which I guess would have been the last time he was UCI tested that year.

Therefore, the whole thread about the UCI should have detected his cancer if they were testing properly doesn't seem valid.

Of course, I might be wrong. I only spend 2 mins googling for the info.

[SA Chris]

Would you care more it was a climber who was cheating - claiming FA's or repeats that they hadn't done ?

I guess in many ways this is similar to the simpson saga where probability was questioned and he chose not to defend the accusations?

[robertostallioni]

If I caught Lance smoking his drugs at a crag, it would kill the sport for me.



Oy! Armstrong - No.

[Dolly]

Would you care more it was a climber who was cheating - claiming FA's or repeats that they hadn't done ?

I guess in many ways this is similar to the simpson saga where probability was questioned and he chose not to defend the accusations?

Apart from this is a multi million pound sport. Not just the athletes, but the sponsors, the bike brands etc. One of the reasons its so compelling is because of how the UCI etc are implicated. Bit more than a bloke talking about a route he did or didn't do.

[lagerstarfish]

We covered this ground a few years ago

some excellent material in that thread right from the start

[Paul T]

Right or not I worry that these recent developments may undermine his charitable work, I think men's health issues do not receive sufficient attention as it is and without the high profile Livestrong image they may fall out of the public eye even further.  I hope even if his athletic legacy is destroyed his charitable work goes from strength to strength

Tim, there's another article on Outside that takes a peek under the covers of the Livestrong Foundation to try and find out what it is that is that it really does do.

http://www.outsideonline.com/outdoor-adventure/athletes/lance-armstrong/Its-Not-About-the-Lab-Rats.html?page=all

[Snoops]

Seriously guys, I know he was a role model to people and all that, but face it, he's a premium grade cheat. I understand that peole want to cling onto what remains of their faith in him, but really from the position of someone who's not idolised him it all looks a bit pathetic. As if he's playing some game and is eventually going to emerge victorious. Wake up - he's as guilty as a puppy sitting next to a pile of poo.

This idea that everyone being on drugs in cycling back in the day makes it ok is frankly laughable. He could have made a stand and bust the drugs game wide open, but he chose to go along with it and litigate against anyone who dared speak out. As a result he probably made doping in cycling worse and extended the drug era. He is not a hero. He sounds more like an arsehole to me.

Also this idea that beating bollock cancer gives him carte blanche to do whatever he wants and still be called a great athelete. Frankly that's insulting to real clean atheletes.

+1
Also people seem to overlook the group of clean cyclists who never made it 'big' due to Armstrong and co

[tim palmer]

Right or not I worry that these recent developments may undermine his charitable work, I think men's health issues do not receive sufficient attention as it is and without the high profile Livestrong image they may fall out of the public eye even further.  I hope even if his athletic legacy is destroyed his charitable work goes from strength to strength

Tim, there's another article on Outside that takes a peek under the covers of the Livestrong Foundation to try and find out what it is that is that it really does do.

http://www.outsideonline.com/outdoor-adventure/athletes/lance-armstrong/Its-Not-About-the-Lab-Rats.html?page=all

I sort of think that is missing the point, it is a question of profile, I might be being dim here but I cannot think of one men's health initiative other than the, all be it tacky and probably pointless, wrist band thingy and  (without wanting to sound like a misogynist) I can think of at least half a dozen health initiatives geared solely to women's health.  Ok Livestrong may not contribute much to primary cancer research but at least it is raising profile which is more than any other organisation is doing at the moment. 

[Fultonius]

Never heard of Movember?

[tim palmer]

ha ha I was being thick

[tim palmer]

but you still have to conceed that men's health issues are fairly low down the spectrum, for instance did you know that oral cancer now provides the greatest burden of human papilloma virus related malignancy (which obviously affects both genders) but young men are not given the HPV vaccine?  (with the caveat that the efficacy of HPV vaccination against orpharyngeal carcinoma is unknown)
Can you hear the hobby horse galloping into view

[SA Chris]

Would you care more it was a climber who was cheating - claiming FA's or repeats that they hadn't done ?

I guess in many ways this is similar to the simpson saga where probability was questioned and he chose not to defend the accusations?

Apart from this is a multi million pound sport. Not just the athletes, but the sponsors, the bike brands etc. One of the reasons its so compelling is because of how the UCI etc are implicated. Bit more than a bloke talking about a route he did or didn't do.

Ok maybe the comparison is somewhat stretched, but to some extent there are some parallels. Albeit small ones. Like this --------------=--------=--------

[Oldmanmatt]

but you still have to conceed that men's health issues are fairly low down the spectrum, for instance did you know that oral cancer now provides the greatest burden of human papilloma virus related malignancy (which obviously affects both genders) but young men are not given the HPV vaccine?  (with the caveat that the efficacy of HPV vaccination against orpharyngeal carcinoma is unknown)
Can you hear the hobby horse galloping into view

Hasn't the Exeter uni study shown a clearer link between Squamous cell Carcinomas and Radon gas density? Which brings into doubt the "requirement" of HPV in the development of the Carcinoma?

[Snoops]

You don't need HPV to get head and neck SCC. It appears to be linked to some oral-pharyngeal SCC's, particularly in the younger patient set. The main risk factors are smoking and drinking.

[tim palmer]

the traditional type of SCC in the oropharynx is smoking and alcohol related, they tend to occur in the elderly and have a poorer prognosis.  There has been a shift over recent years toward a younger group of patients with a better prognosis which have been shown to be HPV positive (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21969503).  Several massive studies have shown this and HPV is felt to have a major oncogenic role in these cases.

[tim palmer]

but you still have to conceed that men's health issues are fairly low down the spectrum, for instance did you know that oral cancer now provides the greatest burden of human papilloma virus related malignancy (which obviously affects both genders) but young men are not given the HPV vaccine?  (with the caveat that the efficacy of HPV vaccination against orpharyngeal carcinoma is unknown)
Can you hear the hobby horse galloping into view

Hasn't the Exeter uni study shown a clearer link between Squamous cell Carcinomas and Radon gas density? Which brings into doubt the "requirement" of HPV in the development of the Carcinoma?

As above, not to denegrate the university of exeter obviously but substantial work has been done in this area and the role of HPV is pretty much established.  HPV testing is now performed as part of standard work up in many head and neck cancers.

[mark s]

To me like others have said.he was the best of a doped era.
He is still an amazing athlete.
I've seen some sites where they say his cancer is from steroids which of say bollocks to (hehe) .I have never spoke to anyone who has taken epo but I'd assume that's the main drug for benefit.the steroids will be for recovery an.d Little strength.the amount cyclists will take will be a tenth of what pro body builders will take and they are not dropin like flies from bollock cancer.

[Paul B]

interesting to note though that said drugs do have an effect on the testicles do they not?

[mark s]

definatly,but its temporary.but ive looked on the net and it says there are not links between the 2
i dont know how the whole lance 'did he didnt he' will ever end.either way one side of the opinion on him will feel its the wrong decision

[dave]

i dont know how the whole lance 'did he didnt he' will ever end

I do, It'll probably end with anyone who's not still brainwashed into the armstrong cult of celebrity concluding he was the biggest and nastiest cheat in the history of professional sport.

[a dense loner]

What the fuck are u talkin about dave? Are there still people out there who think cyclists get up day after day for wks on end cycling hundreds of miles a day on pasta n powerade? U can't remove someone of their efforts of yrs gone by when everyone was doing the same thing. U can't blame the athletes alone, it's also their sponsors, driven by the adoring fans. They don't want to see Fred Mercxx doing a time trial in 3hrs 53 mins when there are 20 guys, maybe on gear maybe not (of course they're on it but there's no proof so how can they be) doing it in 3hrs 40mins. This then becomes the norm.
A lance Armstrong witch hunt that's funny, of course he was on gear. But he was the best cyclist in a world full of people on gear. Is he a role model? Of course he is! arnies a role model, as is Carl Lewis, as is flo-jo, as is hulk hogan etc etc

[mark s]

i dont know how the whole lance 'did he didnt he' will ever end

I do, It'll probably end with anyone who's not still brainwashed into the armstrong cult of celebrity concluding he was the biggest and nastiest cheat in the history of professional sport.

it wasnt cheating ,it was the norm.
other sports like baseball had its steroid era.it was just what the majority did.Body building is a sport where if you dont do it you will win f all,everyone takes steroids and hgh.

[dave]

What so they all enable "drugs mode" and suddenly everyone's on a level playing field again? Ha ha ha ha.

[dave]

U can't remove someone of their efforts of yrs gone by when everyone was doing the same thing.

The point being you have no way of knowing if they were all doing the same.

[richdraws]

You can't be certain contemporary athletes are not using banned methods that are currently undetectable.

I am not convinced you should go back over the track record of athletes and try to remove medals/wins. There ought to be a cut off point, you wouldn't want people doing dna samples of dug up bones of ex athletes and retroactively stripping them off medals surely? Ideally, people wouldn't cheat, but that isn't going to happen, especially with money involved.

That's my retarded opinion anyway.