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This Lance Armstrong shit (Read 49823 times)

SA Chris

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This Lance Armstrong shit
September 12, 2012, 08:16:35 am
I honestly don't know what to make of it?

http://www.outsideonline.com/outdoor-adventure/media/books/Keyes-hamilton-the-secret-race.html

Has anyone read The Sectret Race yet?

Pitcairn

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#1 Re: This Lance Armstrong shit
September 12, 2012, 08:43:04 am
Not read the book yet but from reading this and other reviews it is becoming extremely difficult to keep believing Lance was clean.  Sad really.  I would love to read something about how the culture of the sport has changed and how such systematic doping couldnt happen today.  I have no doubts about Brad Wiggins at all but I would like to see an open and frank comparison between how things were and how they are now.

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#2 Re: This Lance Armstrong shit
September 12, 2012, 10:05:26 am
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Lance-Armstrong-Force-Daniel-Coyle/dp/0007191839

'Tour de Force' Daniel Coyle.

Is a most excellent read. Easily the best book on the Tour I've read. It focuses on Lance's 6th win in 2004.
He was 'entrenched' and neither for or against Armstrong. Its an exciting read in its own right, and makes no judgments (indeed its not a book abut doping) however at the end it seems very clear  what he was upto.


Dolly

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#3 Re: This Lance Armstrong shit
September 12, 2012, 10:20:12 am
Haven't read Hamilton's book, but some of it was in The Times last week.
Seems to point a long way towards his deep involvement with organised, systematic doping.
His "evidence" corroborates what other former team mates have said as well.

IMO - guilty as fook

Nibile

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#4 Re: This Lance Armstrong shit
September 12, 2012, 12:41:26 pm
I think that no matter what they say, the rule that one is innocent until proven guilty is a conditio-sine-qua-non of civilization.
Stripping him of the titles is an offence to the law.
My opinion.

peewee

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#5 Re: This Lance Armstrong shit
September 12, 2012, 12:48:21 pm
I don't know what to think about all this but anybody who can come back from cancer and win The Tour several times doping or not deserves respect in my book.

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#6 Re: This Lance Armstrong shit
September 12, 2012, 01:02:23 pm
He chose not to contest the charges Nibile.

He was undoubtedly a phenomenal athlete, but that anyone with more than a passing interest in pro cycling can still think he was clean astonishes me. In honesty, I don't care about what is done with his titles, doping was so common in the sport from the mid 90's to the introduction of the EPO test, and later the blood passport, that it's impossible to declare a deserving winner of those races.

http://www.sportsscientists.com/2012_08_01_archive.html


SA Chris

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#7 Re: This Lance Armstrong shit
September 12, 2012, 01:07:27 pm
Doping was so common in the sport from the mid 90's to the introduction of the EPO test, and later the blood passport, that it's impossible to declare a deserving winner of those races.

Indeed. Surely whoever the titles are now passed to will need to demonstrate they were clean too.

And peewwee yes, coming back from cancer to a proefssional cycling career is nothing short of amazing. He still has my respect regardless of whether he retains the titles or not. As Duma says I'm not sure many cyclists were clean back then.

Paul B

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#8 Re: This Lance Armstrong shit
September 12, 2012, 01:13:53 pm
I wonder about this too, if drug abuse was rife within the sport it seems a little harsh to single him out. That's not saying that I agree with it, but look at competitive bodybuilding, they basically have a clean version of the sport too which all but acknowledges drug abuse in the main competition.

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#9 Re: This Lance Armstrong shit
September 12, 2012, 01:18:32 pm
I think that no matter what they say, the rule that one is innocent until proven guilty is a conditio-sine-qua-non of civilization.


I am in no way an expert (in fact, I'd barely say I'm knowledgeable, but I did do some googling...). but, USADA vs Lance Armstrong is a civil case and, if Armstrong had decided to contest it, would be decided on a "balance of probabilities" rather than "beyond reasonable doubt".

Beyond reasonable doubt is the required burden of proof for a criminal case and is where innocent until proven guilty comes from...

There some great quotes from a study in 2005 into Armstrong:

Quote
At 21, Armstrong had a distinctly average 21 percent muscle-efficiency rate. Seven years later that rate had increased to 23 percent, a huge leap.

Then:

Quote
"We don't know exactly what accounted for Armstrong's muscular-efficiency change," Coyle said. But he suspects that Armstrong was able to convert fast-twitch muscle fibers to slow-twitch muscle fibers.


Read it here.

I reckon they should just put an asterisk next to those results, as, like others have said it would now be almost impossible to work out who won fairly.

andyd

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#10 Re: This Lance Armstrong shit
September 12, 2012, 01:24:02 pm
Harsh to strip the title. He was the best of a group of cyclists who used drugs to compete. It was a level playing field in many ways. It should be put down as an era of drug taking that is now hopefully over.

Stubbs

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#11 Re: This Lance Armstrong shit
September 12, 2012, 01:37:53 pm
I wonder about this too, if drug abuse was rife within the sport it seems a little harsh to single him out.

He hasn't really been singled out, pretty much every other successful cyclist who was thought to be doping at the time was caught and faced bans/had titles stripped etc.  It has just taken longer than elsewhere to catch up with Armstrong, and he is obviously the biggest figure in the sport.

This is quite an interesting (if long) read that brings together a lot of articles, and asks a lot of questions about the testing or lack thereof that Armstrong was subjected to before his cancer.  http://cavalierfc.tumblr.com/post/30172302298/its-not-about-the-bike

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#12 Re: This Lance Armstrong shit
September 12, 2012, 01:40:56 pm
Hopefully they won't reassign those Tour 'victories' to anyone else. Of the top 10 finishers in those 7 tours, 42 out of 70 (I think) have now tested positive. And he's not being singled out – it's not just about him, though his ego would like to think it is - he's just the biggest name. Cancer or no cancer, he's a cheat, and by popular opinion, a really quite unpleasant person.

And I'll never be able to watch Dodgeball again. That's the big travesty.

tim palmer

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#13 Re: This Lance Armstrong shit
September 12, 2012, 01:41:27 pm
Right or not I worry that these recent developments may undermine his charitable work, I think men's health issues do not receive sufficient attention as it is and without the high profile Livestrong image they may fall out of the public eye even further.  I hope even if his athletic legacy is destroyed his charitable work goes from strength to strength

Stubbs

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#14 Re: This Lance Armstrong shit
September 12, 2012, 01:47:20 pm
I wouldn't worry Tim, it seems the anti Armstrong sentiment is confined to a relatively small field of people who follow bike racing, it seems only about 50% of them feel that this has discredited Lance.

It is a shame in a way that Livestrong is tied so closely to his personality...

Nibile

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#15 Re: This Lance Armstrong shit
September 12, 2012, 03:11:07 pm
Sorry if off topic.
I don't care to know if he was or wasn't clean.
I am only scared by a system that judges on a probability base. It goes against all my principles and against all that I've studied for years.

slackline

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#16 Re: This Lance Armstrong shit
September 12, 2012, 03:32:57 pm
Sorry if off topic.
I don't care to know if he was or wasn't clean.
I am only scared by a system that judges on a probability base. It goes against all my principles and against all that I've studied for years.

There is only one certainty in life, everyone dies.  Everything else is a probability (albeit some things are highly im/probable).

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#17 Re: This Lance Armstrong shit
September 12, 2012, 03:52:21 pm
Lance can be certain about whether he did or did not use

Stubbs

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#18 Re: This Lance Armstrong shit
September 12, 2012, 04:04:43 pm
Nibs, please read through the article I posted, it does a good job of putting together all of the facts about his doping, including his samples that tested positive for EPO.  As far as I understand the USADA ruled based on the evidence they had collected, and then asked Armstong if he would like to contest the decision, which would have resulted in all the evidence being made public (including testimonies from lots of former team mates, and possible Cheryl Crow!).  Armstrong decided he did not want this to happen, and as such did not contest their ruling.  As far as I can see this is the equivalent to pleading guilty in a court.

shark

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#19 Re: This Lance Armstrong shit
September 12, 2012, 04:05:11 pm
Sorry if off topic.
I don't care to know if he was or wasn't clean.
I am only scared by a system that judges on a probability base. It goes against all my principles and against all that I've studied for years.

Would you care more it was a climber who was cheating - claiming FA's or repeats that they hadn't done ?

Probability and statistics can be misused  but probability can put something beyond reasonable doubt as they say in court.

We covered this ground a few years ago

slackline

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#20 Re: This Lance Armstrong shit
September 12, 2012, 04:12:23 pm
I guess so, but when it comes to judging, well the answer is implicit its forming an opinion based on evidence.  That may be convincing/compelling or it may not.

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#21 Re: This Lance Armstrong shit
September 12, 2012, 04:22:43 pm
Ther's a very interesting series of articles on The Science Of Sport blog, in which they analyse stats - power outputs, hill climb times - from recent tours and tours from the Lance era. They think the sport is probably now clean because performances have dropped back into the realms of the humanly-plausible.

Quote
Let's simplify it into the obvious metrics - power and time.  The difference between the current era and previous eras is startling.  In the last four years, none of the Tour's decisive HC climbs have been done at greater than 6 W/kg.  Even the Contador-Schleck showdown on the Tormalet, with the Tour title at stake, was ridden at 5.9 W/kg. 


The graph below was put together by Alex Simmons, and it shows the time on the famous Alp d'Huez climb as a function of power output.  There's a lot of data there but slide your finger across from a time of 38:30.  That's the kind of performance (or faster) we saw in the previous generation.  Then consider the more recent times - Frank Schleck did 40:46 in 2006, the first time in 12 years they didn't break 40.  The best performances in the last 3 years are all slower than 41 minutes.  That fits well with what I've added to the graph in blue and yellow - those are the equivalent performances to two climbs in the 2010 Tour, where riders simply don't get above 6W/kg anymore.  Not even once, let alone repeatedly during the race, as they once did.

And from last year:

Quote
all three regularly completed HC climbs in this Tour have been over three minutes slower in this Tour than were seen the 1990s and 2000s.  And not a single HC climb in the last two Tours have been done at anything close to 6.2 W/kg, let alone the 6.4 W/kg seen in years gone by.

And so the combination of performance times decreasing, the physiological implications of those performances and the bio-passport data suggest progress in the anti-doping fight
« Last Edit: September 12, 2012, 04:34:57 pm by Muenchener »

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#22 Re: This Lance Armstrong shit
September 12, 2012, 04:25:36 pm
I was under the impression that Lance decided not to contest the decision, because USADA wouldn't present the evidence, so in effect he had no idea what to defend himself against.

I'm really just waiting for them to actually present something to the UCI, so that they can confirm something and then the ASO can decide what they want to do with his titles.

I don't see the point in removing them from him. It will certainly help nobody in the sport, to give them to Jan.

Another, rather unpleasant point from the side of USADA is that from what I understand, the WADA rules are that you cannot go back any further than 8 years for doping convictions, but USADA is trying to go back 14 years. However, this WADA rule is currently trying to be changed and will re-include any periods that had previously expired.
Seems rather convienient.

Nibile

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#23 Re: This Lance Armstrong shit
September 12, 2012, 04:56:32 pm
Thanks for the link Stubbs, it's well interesting. It's very important to let people know that the fact that he's never been found positive is not true. I did not know it, for example.
It's very difficult to explain what I think, so sorry if I went off topic and wasn't clear, I should have been more precise.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2012, 05:04:31 pm by Nibile »

dave

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#24 Re: This Lance Armstrong shit
September 12, 2012, 05:16:35 pm
Seriously guys, I know he was a role model to people and all that, but face it, he's a premium grade cheat. I understand that peole want to cling onto what remains of their faith in him, but really from the position of someone who's not idolised him it all looks a bit pathetic. As if he's playing some game and is eventually going to emerge victorious. Wake up - he's as guilty as a puppy sitting next to a pile of poo.

This idea that everyone being on drugs in cycling back in the day makes it ok is frankly laughable. He could have made a stand and bust the drugs game wide open, but he chose to go along with it and litigate against anyone who dared speak out. As a result he probably made doping in cycling worse and extended the drug era. He is not a hero. He sounds more like an arsehole to me.

Also this idea that beating bollock cancer gives him carte blanche to do whatever he wants and still be called a great athelete. Frankly that's insulting to real clean atheletes.

 

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