[TobyD]

Pads aren't new, theyre just new to the uk scene. Americans have been using them for a long time...

I keep trying kneepads on routes in the vain hope that they will compensate for 2% of my considerable weakness... they just don't seem to work for me though, jeans seem almost as good, and infinitely less annoying to climb all the non kneebar moves in. i'm not against pads, just gutted i can't stick them on and path things. (like everyone in france seems to now)

[Baron]

No biggie. Seb used a multitude of proto knee pads down cheedale cornice in the early 90's and it still took him yonks to get up K3.

[slackline]

Yes, I fell out of the knee bar! My penultimate session saw me shake myself out of this infamous resting position. The knee bar, although a good rest for the arms (one at a time, I don’t know how people manage to take both arms off!), required a lot of tension on my part to stay on and I slowly slipped out of it from pure fatigue. A frustrating place to fail.

While on this subject I feel I should clarify for those who are interested: I did use the knee bar and I did use a knee pad, as has been done in other recent ascents. This was always my plan but in addition I am maid of honour at my sister’s wedding in a week’s time and my dress sits just above the knee, a small gender specific consideration….

[SA Chris]

Is that what all the fuss is about? Hardly looks like the most amazing place to recover.

[lagerstarfish]

I've heard a rumor that Shark is involved in the development of a unique, portable, double sided training device with four knee bar widths that can stimulate massive increases in knee bar strength yet will be subtly forgiving on the patella

Supposed to be called something like The Prism

[tomtom]

"the Wedgie"

[Nigel]

Is that what all the fuss is about? Hardly looks like the most amazing place to recover.

Exactly! Note foot basically on tip toes just to get the knee bar in - how long can people rest on the big toe of one foot for these days? Not exactly relaxing!

[fatboySlimfast]

log

[Doylo]

It definitely seems that Mina didn't get much advantage out of it. Its obviously still body specific to get the most out of it and its gonna be tiring to the core whoever you are.

[Baron]

That knee bar looks 8b+ alone.

I think its brilliant Mina's crushing at the tor. Few more damaged hardman egos out there now.

[petejh]

While on this subject I feel I should clarify for those who are interested: I did use the knee bar and I did use a knee pad, as has been done in other recent ascents. This was always my plan but in addition I am maid of honour at my sister’s wedding in a week’s time and my dress sits just above the knee, a small gender specific consideration…. 

 ..hmmmmm

I've got two projects on the Orme that require a rubber kneepad on both knees. How times have changed...

It's all starting to make sense - Doylo's obviously a transvestite and is concerned about how his knees will look in a dress. Yes how times have changed indeed Doylo. The implication that kneepads = 'for girls' has been confirmed and real men, for whom routes like this are too hard, can safely pigeon-hole pads together with those other well-known methods of bringing a hard route down to size known as: 'having small hands' and: 'weighing 8 stone'.  Rest easy. 

[GraemeA]

As for down-grading - as my limited knowledge of sport climbing goes, I didn't think any route graded 8b or harder in the Peak got downgraded until either Keith Sharples redpointed it, or a blond speccy climbers from Lancashire outsighted it.....

I thought Reevsey was the limus test for downgrading

[RobinB]

  I thought Reevsey was the limus test for downgrading

Think it's The Shark these days

[shark]

  I thought Reevsey was the limus test for downgrading

Think it's The Shark these days

That's why I started the thread. No point getting on Mecca if its going to be downgraded.

Seeing as no one is piling in with a downgrade, me and Keith are clubbing together for a pair of kneepads.

[Paul B]

No biggie. Seb used a multitude of proto knee pads down cheedale cornice in the early 90's and it still took him yonks to get up K3.

I hope you see the irony in using K3 and kneepads in a thread about grades and kneebars! If you don't then its a terrible example.

[Turboman]

Seeing as no one is piling in with a downgrade, me and Keith are clubbing together for a pair of kneepads.

Don't you mean knee replacements?

[shark]

I've never used pads so can't comment on that.  But the kneebar sequence has always been the obvious way to climb this route.  The fact that a lot of people (read men who can't bend their legs) in Sheffield can't work out sequences to save their lives isn't everyone else's fault.   

Ok as I'm a glutton for punishment (and because you said Mecca is two full grades harder than the Oak    ) I'm going to bite.

If you weren't aware of it, the extent to which you got a kneebar in and rested on it caused a bit of a stir at the time. It had a few people wondering how much easier it was to do Mecca if you could get a rest in. However, as nobody else  that I was aware of could repeat your feat or at least to anywhere near the same extent the discussion died. I would surmise that those who couldn't get their knee to work at the time would have had a far better chance had they had a 5.10 kneepad. So in short I think that the regularity of kneebar usage up until very recently has been rarer than you imply even for those outside Sheffield 

[Johnny Brown]

  I thought Reevsey was the limus test for downgrading

Think it's The Shark these days

That's why I started the thread. No point getting on Mecca if its going to be downgraded.

Seeing as no one is piling in with a downgrade, me and Keith are clubbing together for a pair of kneepads.

I think 'No point getting on xxx if its going to be downgraded' is about the most depressing sentiment I've seen on this forum. Hopefully you're joking, but just in case you're not, I think if you do Mecca it should immediately be downgraded, kneepads or no. Which it probably would be anyway, lets face it.

[shark]

There's no need to be like that

[GraemeA]

No point getting on Mecca if its going to be downgraded.

It will only be downgraded if you do it, so I guess Mina is fairly safe in her 8b+ tick

[DaveC]

[Nemo]

"If you weren't aware of it, the extent to which you got a kneebar in and rested on it caused a bit of a stir at the time." - Shark

No, I'd no idea.  Seems a bit bizarre.  As I said, I certainly wasn’t the first to use it (I suppose maybe I was the first to be seen by locals using it...) 

Not sure about the "extent" to which I used it.  Mina's description sounds pretty much as I remember it.  It did make the clip easier.  Other than that it was just a brief chalk, and just felt part of the sequence rather than some massive rest.  I guess if pads mean that some people can hang out there for ages and take both hands off that might change things a bit, but doesn't sound like that's the case for most folks.

What I'd argue probably makes a bigger difference than the kneebar to the overall difficulty is whether or not you're tall enough to reach the egyptian move from the undercut pocket all the way to the L crimp out of the top of the groove.  I could reach this with a bit to spare (I’m 5’10), but from what Elmo told me when he did it, I think having to use the poor L sidepull to make the move up R before reaching back L makes things a fair bit trickier.

“So in short I think that the regularity of kneebar usage up until very recently has been rarer than you imply” – Shark

I guess all I can go by is what I saw on the occasions I visited – clearly Mecca has had stacks of ascents and maybe you’re right overall.  But out of the folks I saw trying it back around 1999-2001 the majority did use it (admittedly quite a lot of those were a big team of Japanese guys of various sizes who were all pretty much using the same sequence.)  To be honest, I think it wasn't till after I'd done it that I saw some locals doing it the "normal" way – up till then what we'd been doing had just seemed like the “obvious” thing to do.  But I suppose sequences are always “obvious” once you know them.  I am a bit surprised that people knew about it and couldn’t get it to work, but there we are.


Sorry about the Oak line (and I meant the Oak and Overnite rather than the Oak and Magnetic - Magnetic's a different type of route).  That wasn't aimed at you - I was just thinking of similar length routes I did around the same time.  For what it's worth it is what I thought - I felt that all the grades of those routes were pretty much right first time round and I was surprised when people started fiddling with them.  But hey, one person's opinion doesn't count for squat (and I think I'm probably in the minority on the Oak anyway.)  Also for some reason, thinking back I did tend to end up at the Tor in full sun in the middle of summer, so perhaps that affected my opinion a bit.

This does all seem pretty daft though.  I've talked to a stack of people who've done Mecca and until this thread I'd never heard anyone question the grade.  I'm hardly the most qualified person to say what is or isn't 8b+, but from the amount of ascents it’s had I think pads would have to change things in a pretty big way for it to be downgraded.  No doubt you'll always get a few folks who think it's easier though, same as any route. 

And finally whilst I'm hardly the romantic "lets all climb HVS and watch pretty sunsets" type, I really don't think it matters a fat lot.  It's MECCA.  It's still the same route even if it's graded ZZZ104f+.  Along with Body Machine, IMO it's the best sport route in the Peak.  Hopefully you were joking about not trying it if the grade changed, but if not…  Get some pads on (or try it without) and get on the thing whatever people say.

[Johnny Brown]

Body Machine is awful.

[Gus]

ly good

[Baron]

No biggie. Seb used a multitude of proto knee pads down cheedale cornice in the early 90's and it still took him yonks to get up K3.

I hope you see the irony in using K3 and kneepads in a thread about grades and kneebars! If you don't then its a terrible example.

Saw first ascent and first flash. Guess you're right.