[Doylo]

Knee bars have been around for years. These new rubber kneepads are unbelievable on certain kneebars.  When i first did Trigger Cut in the Cave it was about 7c+ for me.  Now its 7b+ with the 5.10 pad, it just sucks the rock up.  Theres no denying that using kneepad's on Mecca is significant.  Getting a few shakes on a PE route like this is massive.  Having said that it was always a solid 8b+ without and by the sound of it this just knocks it into the lower end of the grade.  Mawson still thought it was harder than Walking Mussel and that's been confirmed as 8b+ by plenty of beasts (Carson, Bransby, Robins, Caff, Dyer, Barrows couldn't do the easy moves  ).  It's amazing to see a hardcore classic British route like this get done by a British gal.    Mina and Shauna really have raised the bar for power/PE climbing.  Good effort to Lucy Creamer too for being the first one to crack the grade.

[turnipturned]

Why are the majority of people in the UK such negative bastards!

Chris Davis said it right in another post.

It seems as soon as someone does something at there limit/ hard/ breaking into a new grade, people suggest that it must be soft or did it an easier sequence. Lets congratulated people, encourage them and see how far they can go.

Mina (who I gather is mainly a boulderer with a incredible global ticklist for anyones stand) has just done 8b+ (Second British Women??). WTF that's amazing. I say ignore the idiots and GO FUCKING GET MINA. Push the sport in a new direction.

[Doylo]

I don't see anything wrong with discussing whether new technology makes things easier but you definitely chose the wrong moment Shark  Especially as people have been debating this for months now. Extension next Mina...

[Monolith]

Outstanding effort Mina! Fantastic to hear of such joyous news, keep it coming!

To quote cjd from another thread....

"Its the same old British story really - lets give people negative feedback for cool bits of climbing, and bicker until everything is 7c+, one of the main reasons why international standards are increasing with great and fun scenes, and we are all becoming known as a nation of grumpy know it all cnuts, still stuck where we were 10 years ago."

7c+!? I thought 7b+ was the Welsh ceiling?

Funny Mecca story for the day, Matt Donnelly told me his dad first spotted the potential kneebar as a sequence for him to climb it. He tried it, then did it. Not a bad spot for a man who would then have been mid 60s and had never climbed.

[Percy B]

The comment that knee bars are a new-ish climbing technique is hilarious - they've been used as long as people have climbed rocks... I imagine the early pioneers climbing wide cracks found out about knee-bars pretty quickly!

As for down-grading - as my limited knowledge of sport climbing goes, I didn't think any route graded 8b or harder in the Peak got downgraded until either Keith Sharples redpointed it, or a blond speccy climbers from Lancashire outsighted it.....

The thread is genius - well done for Shark for getting muddled up in minutiae

[SA Chris]

As Nibile says, you could have timed this post better Shark. Almost worth a puntering.

Go ahead I deserve it.

Sorry Mina

Looks like the Barrow boy has given you your medicine.

[cofe]

great effort Mina.

[slackline]

Log pile?

[Grubes]

Awesome achievement by mina

Log pile?

Yup!

[SA Chris]

+1

[Serpico]

Nobody knee'ds this.

[tommytwotone]

I can't wait for this to join t' other threads in the log pile. That would cap things off.

[andy_e]

It's thigh time this went in the log pile. We don't want to calf any more bad puns.

[shark]

I regret having started it but the thread has yielded a lot of good points by those familiar with the route and what sort of advantage or otherwise comes from using the new knee pads as well as info on Mina's ascent too from Dave none of which is shit IMO.

[abarro81]

Pads aren't new, theyre just new to the uk scene. Americans have been using them for a long time...

[shark]

Pads aren't new, theyre just new to the uk scene. Americans have been using them for a long time...

I know and I have nothing against them and I used one made out of carpet for Powerplant. There is no going back anyway on these things - even Pat Littlejohn used chalk in the end.

There are some routes and problems where they are only going to make a marginal difference and some where they will make a massive difference. That should be recognised especially if the difference is enough to shunt a problem or route into another grade. From the commentary so far it seems that Mecca doesn't fall into that category which is great as it is a benchmark iconic route which is used to compare other routes. Though I think if people want an informed view of an ascent and its relative challenges then they should know that knee pads can make a big difference (otherwise people wouldn't shell out £40 for them). The fact that from what Dave said that kneebars didnt work well for Mina added to the difficulty for her compared to others. That's the sort of thing I find interesting and I'm sure others do too.

I think guidebook writers should grade for using knee pads given that they are commercially available and widely used obviously where it makes a difference such as illustrated by the Font problem El Mocho described.

[tomtom]

Seems to be a legit post to me.. I'm stumped why anyone would want to send it to the log pile. Still I'd better toe the line and join in.

[Adam Lincoln]

To quote cjd from another thread....

"Its the same old British story really - lets give people negative feedback for cool bits of climbing, and bicker until everything is 7c+, one of the main reasons why international standards are increasing with great and fun scenes, and we are all becoming known as a nation of grumpy know it all cnuts, still stuck where we were 10 years ago."

Awesome Effort Mina! 

Well fucking said!

[Paul B]

Its quite laughable that people will argue the toss over a plus, morphology being what it is.

Knees make a difference, as does height, body type (even gender?). This only matters when you define your climbing simply by a number.

It seems she was psyched to crush Mecca (not just '8b+'), and that has been done. Bon Effort.

This is like when Bens roof got all those ascents and another idiot started a similar debate...

[dave]

Fuck me, next we'll have people saying you can't crimp XY or Z hold on whatever route cos someone thinks they saw Jerry openhanded it. Its times like this that I'm ashamed to be a tor devotee.

[shark]

  cos someone thinks they saw Jerry openhanded it.

Madness. Jerry crimped everything. Allegedly.

[Nemo]

I've never used pads so can't comment on that.  But the kneebar sequence has always been the obvious way to climb this route.  The fact that a lot of people (read men who can't bend their legs) in Sheffield can't work out sequences to save their lives isn't everyone else's fault.    It probably is more or less helpful depending on leg length, but I've seen people of all shapes and sizes use it.  Presumably a pad makes it better for some people, and maybe a bit less painful.  As for how much easier it makes it, the answer IMO is "a bit, but not that much".  As Monkey Boy says, you get a bit back in the arms but it tires your core - the one redpoint I fell higher than the move to the groove, was actually taking the knee out of the kneebar (which requires a fair bit of body tension).  As Elmo says, it's a pretty crap foothold you're barring off.

Anyway, for what it's worth I used three kneebars on Mecca.  One the obvious one in the middle of the groove.  One with outside of knee and thigh wedged against the top of the groove and one with my L knee briefly wedged against my R knee in the other kneebar! - before levering off the R kneebar using the high LF egyptian to make the last tricky move.  Basically you can pretty much "swim" from the base of the groove to the last crimps with very little weight on your arms (although that doesn't in any way make it "easy").  It's a frickin groove.  That's what you're "supposed" to do in grooves.  It's what makes em interesting to climb.  It's the reason Mecca is such a great route rather than just being a series of dull crimps.

Also, I did this well over a decade ago, so there's certainly nothing new about it.  And at various times before and since I've watched other people independently work out pretty much the same sequence.  The fact that it's only just becoming the normal way in Sheffield says more about Sheffield than it does about anything else.  Maybe a bit more yoga and a bit less Beastmaking...   

But whatever sequence, IMO it's still at least two full grades harder than similar length routes at Malham like the Oak or Magnetic.  It's also certainly no more than a grade easier than Make It Funky.  ie: it would be 8b+ anywhere else in the world.  The fact that some folks in Shef have it dialled and therefore find it easy is pretty irrelevant.  8b+ SHOULD be easy to people who are as strong as they are.  Also as Jasper suggested, all these routes are harder than they used to be, not easier - if nothing else due to polish, but holds have come off too.

Finally...  Really well done Mina.     Ignore the silliness and get on Make It Funky.  No useful kneebars on there (that I could find) - but there are toe jams, toe hooks, egyptians, heel toes and lots of other good stuff.  It's called rock climbing.   

[cheque]

 

Looks like the only logical conclusion to this thread is for Miss Wujastyk to ceremonially knee Shark in the nuts (pad optional) before an audience of Tor regulars.

[Doylo]

I've got two projects on the Orme that require a rubber kneepad on both knees. How times have changed...

[Monolith]

Funny Mecca story for the day, Matt Donnelly told me his dad first spotted the potential kneebar as a sequence for him to climb it. He tried it, then did it. Not a bad spot for a man who would then have been mid 60s and had never climbed.

Edit; Poor memory, it was the egyptian!