[Sasquatch]

Replace the running with other stuff or just have it as active rest as there is no benefit to climbing endurance from increasing your cardio fitness.

Are you certain about this?  I'd love to hear more perspective.  I've always been a believer that almost any physical activity will have some type of crossover effect, it's just a matter of how much crossover.  i.e. FBing is not climbing, but there is a high degree of crossover.  Running is not climbing, but still has a small degree of crossover. 

In his particular workout plan, I don't see any type of steady state exercise for more than maybe 5minutes except for the running.  I would agree that doing 30min ARC sessions would be more productive than 30 minutes of running, but if his upper body can't take the additional volume, then I would see the running as beneficial.

These days I rarely climb anything long, but I took a trip to Kalymnos a few years back and some of the routes took between 15-20 minutes for me to climb.  I would say that you need some level of cardio fitness for that type of climbing.

[shark]

Replace the running with other stuff or just have it as active rest as there is no benefit to climbing endurance from increasing your cardio fitness.

Are you certain about this?  I'd love to hear more perspective.  I've always been a believer that almost any physical activity will have some type of crossover effect, it's just a matter of how much crossover.  i.e. FBing is not climbing, but there is a high degree of crossover.  Running is not climbing, but still has a small degree of crossover. 

In his particular workout plan, I don't see any type of steady state exercise for more than maybe 5minutes except for the running.  I would agree that doing 30min ARC sessions would be more productive than 30 minutes of running, but if his upper body can't take the additional volume, then I would see the running as beneficial.

These days I rarely climb anything long, but I took a trip to Kalymnos a few years back and some of the routes took between 15-20 minutes for me to climb.  I would say that you need some level of cardio fitness for that type of climbing.

I'm not certain about anything but I accept the scientific orthodoxy that local endurance performance in the forearms is not affected by cardio-vascular fitness because of the small size of the forearms not least because it also accords with my personal experience that running has not helped with my climbing endurance except maybe to help develop a certain fighting spirit.

I have done a lot of running in the past and 6/7 years ago I was trying to get my half marathon time down to 90 minutes again (unsuccessfully). In recent years I have done next to no running except for the very occasional jog in the Peak District or around a park with my 8 year old daughter. In general terms I feel no diffrent in climbing endurance terms between then and now.

Endurance climbing with shake-outs has always been my forte and I have never felt more climbing fit than last October when I went to Kalymnos and did Priapos which probably took 40+ mins and I was almost recovered by the time I got to the belay. That had nothing to do with cardio fitness (because I wasnt doing any) and everything to do with the few weeks prep doing AeroCap bouldering circuits in my Shed, not to mention the patience of my belayer.

Running is good for many other physical and psychological reasons and as it doesnt detract from climbing performance there is no reason not to do it if it you have the time and are maxing out on more specific training but I am sceptical of claims of even marginal physical crossover benefits on climbing endurance.

[mrjonathanr]

did Priapos which .......   everything to do with the few weeks prep doing AeroCap bouldering circuits in my Shed.

Quite.

[Adam Lincoln]

bolton complex,

What are these and why Bolton? 

[mrjonathanr]

Shark's reminiscing about his hirsute youth I expect.

[robertostallioni]

bolton complex,

What are these and why Bolton? 

because thats where Serps doesn't live, of course.

[shark]

bolton complex,

What are these and why Bolton? 

because thats where Serps doesn't live, of course.

Hot from the Preston laboratory...

The Bolton Laboratory, I don't know why everyone thinks I'm from Preston.
Feel free to publish the new complex, it needs tweaking though.

[robertostallioni]

  harrumph.

Well, does he live there or wot?

[Adam Lincoln]

harrumph.

Well, does he live there or wot?

Ahh that explains it as he isn't from Bolton. I assumed it had something to do with Serps but not living it Bolton through me.

[shark]

Ahh that explains it as he isn't from Bolton. I assumed it had something to do with Serps but not living it Bolton through me.

Translation?

[Sasquatch]

I'm not certain about anything but I accept the scientific orthodoxy that local endurance performance in the forearms is not affected by cardio-vascular fitness because of the small size of the forearms not least because it also accords with my personal experience that running has not helped with my climbing endurance except maybe to help develop a certain fighting spirit.

I have done a lot of running in the past and 6/7 years ago I was trying to get my half marathon time down to 90 minutes again (unsuccessfully). In recent years I have done next to no running except for the very occasional jog in the Peak District or around a park with my 8 year old daughter. In general terms I feel no diffrent in climbing endurance terms between then and now.

Endurance climbing with shake-outs has always been my forte and I have never felt more climbing fit than last October when I went to Kalymnos and did Priapos which probably took 40+ mins and I was almost recovered by the time I got to the belay. That had nothing to do with cardio fitness (because I wasnt doing any) and everything to do with the few weeks prep doing AeroCap bouldering circuits in my Shed, not to mention the patience of my belayer.

Running is good for many other physical and psychological reasons and as it doesnt detract from climbing performance there is no reason not to do it if it you have the time and are maxing out on more specific training but I am sceptical of claims of even marginal physical crossover benefits on climbing endurance.

Can you point me to the bolded part?  I'd love to read up on the studies.

Are you sure your AeroCap Bouldering circuits were not also training your cardio fitness?  Isn't AeroCap short for Aerobic Capacity which is another term for cardio fitness?  You may not have been running, but don't mistake that as being the same as not doing any cardio fitness.

As I said before:

I've always been a believer that almost any physical activity will have some type of crossover effect, it's just a matter of how much crossover.  i.e. FBing is not climbing, but there is a high degree of crossover.  Running is not climbing, but still has a small degree of crossover. 

In his particular workout plan, I don't see any type of steady state exercise for more than maybe 5minutes except for the running.  I would agree that doing 30min ARC sessions would be more productive than 30 minutes of running, but if his upper body can't take the additional volume, then I would see the running as beneficial.

I'm a HUGE believer in the principle of specificity though, which leads me to think now that the OP needs to REALLY shift to a much higher level of Aerocap based on his stated intention of redpointing "steep long endurancy limestone routes."  I would say he should be building to 5-6 solid Aerocap sessions a week over the 8-week cycle and everything else is filler...

[shark]

The difference is that the aerobic activity is local to (mainly) your forearm muscles subject to isometric contractions which shut off the blood.

Have you got Macleod's book "9 out of 10 climbers"? This has a section called "Climbing is not a cardiovascular sport" p85 onwards.

Taking the key bits of what he says: "The intensity (of route climbing) is constantly rising and falling...It comes in bursts of anaerobic effort with aerobic recovery....the forearm is the centre of fatigue...the significant detail of forearm activity in climbing is that contractions are isometric.... During high force pulls on holds, little or no blood can flow in or out of the finger flexor muscles due to the high pressure squeezing the blood vessels shut...in climbing we do give our forearms a rest (moving between holds and at shakeouts) . During these, blood can move through the muscleto help remove acid and deliver oxygen once more . Yet climbing is unlike cardiovacular sports where moving muscles pump blood through themselves much more effectively and performance becomes limited by the rate the heart can move the blood between the lungs and muscles. Climbing endurance is not limited by the volume of blood pumped by the heart, even during rests. ...the small muscles of the forearm cannot consume oxygen at a rate that would be limited by cardiovacsular performance. It follows that general cardiovascular training to strengthen the heart has little influence on our ability to climb pumpy routes. In general, the adaptions that give better forearm endurance for intermittant isometric contractions in climbing happen inside the forearm muscle"

These are not new points which is why I called it scientific orthodoxy. I have not got them to hand but I am fairly sure the points were made in the "Self Coached Climber" and even "Performance Rock Climbing" from way back when.   

[Sasquatch]

The difference is that the aerobic activity is local to (mainly) your forearm muscles subject to isometric contractions which shut off the blood.

Have you got Macleod's book "9 out of 10 climbers"? This has a section called "Climbing is not a cardiovascular sport" p85 onwards......

These are not new points which is why I called it scientific orthodoxy. I have not got them to hand but I am fairly sure the points were made in the "Self Coached Climber" and even "Performance Rock Climbing" from way back when.

I find this pretty amusing as he runs as well.  Before you go off explaining the difference, I get it.  He's doing for the exact same reason as me, namely to drop weight.  Not to gain climbing fitness.  I'll do a bit more research and get back to it... 

For an n=1 on the other side, I find that as primarily a boulderer, if I'm in good running/biking shape, I do much better on routes.  If i'm not in good overall cardio shape, endurance routes are MUCH tougher.... 

[lmarenzi]

I don't do any running myself as I am too lazy, but did note that on his recent blog Dave Mac did mention doing light cross country runs ...

of between 2 and 6 hours in length!

On the other hand what Shark is saying is very plausible, so in the end I am just confused as usual.

[mrjonathanr]

Let me hazard a guess. If Dave Mc had 3 hours to train a week he'd boulder wouldn't he? As he probably trains as much as his body can reasonably take, he can indulge in less important training activities which help overall condition/body fat %/ and general recovery. Personally I don't think running has no benefit, just it's a long way down the list from climbing-specific training benefits.

[Sasquatch]

Hammer - Nail - Head

[Nibile]

ahah!!! fantastic!!!
that's exactly what I was thinking minutes ago, while shoveling down a 400 grams steak after today's deadlifting session!!!
great minds, etc.
I'm a bit euphoric, you know.

[Serpico]

Running doesn't improve climbing - FACT, it's been researched to death, and from my own experience of starting running a couple of years ago the only impact it had on my climbing was a negative one. Fitness isn't a general quality that transfers across disciplines, it's a combination of factors that are specific to the sport you train, that's why when Lance Armstrong, arguably the world's greatest pharmaceutically enhanced athlete, tried his hand at marathon he could only manage a 2hr59.

[Sasquatch]

Running doesn't improve climbing - FACT, it's been researched to death, and from my own experience of starting running a couple of years ago the only impact it had on my climbing was a negative one. Fitness isn't a general quality that transfers across disciplines, it's a combination of factors that are specific to the sport you train, that's why when Lance Armstrong, arguably the world's greatest pharmaceutically enhanced athlete, tried his hand at marathon he could only manage a 2hr59.

I've never claimed that running would directly improve your climbing.  I've made the claim that running (general cardio) can be a useful part of a structured training program for climbing.  Are you disagreeing with this?

I think everyone who's been espousing the usefulness of running takes it for granted that if you don't go climb at all and all you do is go run, then you won't get better at climbing. 

I think your Lance example is counterproductive as well.  While there's not 100% transference, running a 2:59 marathon off the couch is pretty remarkable showing that some degree of transference happens.  I strongly disagree that fitness is non-transferable, it's all a matter of degree. 

[Serpico]

I've never claimed that running would directly improve your climbing.  I've made the claim that running (general cardio) can be a useful part of a structured training program for climbing.  Are you disagreeing with this?

Yes.

I think your Lance example is counterproductive as well.  While there's not 100% transference, running a 2:59 marathon off the couch is pretty remarkable showing that some degree of transference happens.

It wasn't 'off the couch' he trained for it.

I strongly disagree that fitness is non-transferable, it's all a matter of degree.

Nope, it doesn't transfer because it's specific, this is one of the best established principles of sports science - SAID; specific adaptations to imposed demands. Increased mitochondria in the legs won't stop your forearms getting pumped, increased lung capacity won't make a difference if the lung capacity isn't a limiting factor, the enzymes that deal with fatigue metabolites develop only where they're needed, and so on...
Fitness really means fitness for what you've trained for, climbing is not a CV sport, running won't help climbing in any way. If you're having to run to control weight it's because you're consuming more calories than you need.
There are good reasons for running - pleasure, or for CV health, but not for improving climbing.

[shark]

This all well and good but are you from Bolton or aren't you?

[Serpico]

I've got a BL postcode, always have had, and I can see a quarry from my bedroom window, and the Reebok from my spare room window. I'm so Bolton it hurts.

[TobyD]

Nope, it doesn't transfer because it's specific, this is one of the best established principles of sports science - SAID; specific adaptations to imposed demands.
Fitness really means fitness for what you've trained for, climbing is not a CV sport, running won't help climbing in any way. If you're having to run to control weight it's because you're consuming more calories than you need.
There are good reasons for running - pleasure, or for CV health, but not for improving climbing.

For sport climbing, most trad, bouldering i would whole heartedly agree with you.  For really drawn out physically demanding avenues of climbing such as freeing big walls, I am not so sure: I think it helps.
But since the matter in question is single pitch redpointing and onsighting, running will do little other than allow you to eat more cakes and maintain an acceptable body fat percentage.

[shark]

I've got a BL postcode, always have had, and I can see a quarry from my bedroom window, and the Reebok from my spare room window. I'm so Bolton it hurts.

Sweet. I have triangulated your position so I can stalk you in the real world too.

[Duma]

running will do little other than allow you to eat more cakes and maintain an acceptable body fat percentage.

Surely this is more than enough reason?