Quote from: Sasquatch on June 28, 2012, 06:31:05 pmRunning is an interesting example. If you look at classic 5-10K training, you build easy/steady volume up until you're consistantly running 50-70 miles per week, then add a small amount of "fast running". But in a given week, your "high intensity running" only accounts for about 5% of your total running. How many climbers do you know who do that? A few of the pros, but that's about it.... As you get to shorter and shorter running distances, you see a higher percentage of "high intensity" at maybe 10-15%, but still nothing like what you see climbers doing.Lots of (most?) climbers do it. All the ones who are happily out cruising easy trad, with the occasional shot at something a bit harder. Ok, I'm exaggerating, but seriously if doing lots of easy mileage worked for climbing, then the top climbers would be different people. I have a couple of friends who are training for big walls - they've been quite disciplined about doing sets of 45min non stop climbing at lower levels, gradually building up to around f7a sport climbing. I'll let you know if they start sprinting up 8C's! Running's probably not a great analogy. Legs are well equipped to carry bodyweight, but fingers are slightly smaller! The big difficulty with climbing isn't getting stronger muscles, it's getting stronger tendons.
Running is an interesting example. If you look at classic 5-10K training, you build easy/steady volume up until you're consistantly running 50-70 miles per week, then add a small amount of "fast running". But in a given week, your "high intensity running" only accounts for about 5% of your total running. How many climbers do you know who do that? A few of the pros, but that's about it.... As you get to shorter and shorter running distances, you see a higher percentage of "high intensity" at maybe 10-15%, but still nothing like what you see climbers doing.
Sorry but you've still missed the point of the picture. The picture is to illustrate the fact that the 'shape' of the fingers, referring specifically the amount of 'pulp' as she calls it at the end of the fingers is a large determinant of the ability to hang small holds, she also quotes previous studies to this effect, and also her own study which shows that training on small edges doesn't transfer to grip strength to the same degree as training on larger edges with added weight. This is the reason she recommends training strict half crimped throughout.
Quote from: rodma on June 28, 2012, 04:25:37 pmQuote from: shark on June 28, 2012, 03:45:17 pmQuote from: rodma on June 28, 2012, 02:07:34 pmQuote from: Serpico on June 28, 2012, 10:18:40 amYou need to see the picture in the context of the blog it came from to understand the point it was illustrating.Fair dos, didn't really have the time. Edit: Not sorry, have now read article and i stand by my commmentsIt's just quite a common mistake to think that because you can open hand hang (albeit by the skin dragging) a very small edge that this will in some way translate to anything other than small holds that rely on this type of friction, utilising that exact griptype.If, on the otherhand you are half-crimping an 18mm edge to start with, then half crimping a 9mm edge (or smaller) will not be twice as hard as this.The point Eva was making that training on small holds has certain limitations because of skin and conditions and having the right shaped fingers.I'm not sure what point you are making but you don't seem to be disagreeing with that my non-point was that you can train on small holds if you're not attempting to drag them, which has very little to do with shape of fingers. if, for instance when you crimp, you can have all of your tips beautifully lined up on a small edge, that open-handed you could not, then the only reason that you would not be able to hold it half-crimped would be down to weakness, nothing else, just weakness, and that is easily addressedSorry but you've still missed the point of the picture. The picture is to illustrate the fact that the 'shape' of the fingers, referring specifically the amount of 'pulp' as she calls it at the end of the fingers is a large determinant of the ability to hang small holds, she also quotes previous studies to this effect, and also her own study which shows that training on small edges doesn't transfer to grip strength to the same degree as training on larger edges with added weight. This is the reason she recommends training strict half crimped throughout.
Quote from: shark on June 28, 2012, 03:45:17 pmQuote from: rodma on June 28, 2012, 02:07:34 pmQuote from: Serpico on June 28, 2012, 10:18:40 amYou need to see the picture in the context of the blog it came from to understand the point it was illustrating.Fair dos, didn't really have the time. Edit: Not sorry, have now read article and i stand by my commmentsIt's just quite a common mistake to think that because you can open hand hang (albeit by the skin dragging) a very small edge that this will in some way translate to anything other than small holds that rely on this type of friction, utilising that exact griptype.If, on the otherhand you are half-crimping an 18mm edge to start with, then half crimping a 9mm edge (or smaller) will not be twice as hard as this.The point Eva was making that training on small holds has certain limitations because of skin and conditions and having the right shaped fingers.I'm not sure what point you are making but you don't seem to be disagreeing with that my non-point was that you can train on small holds if you're not attempting to drag them, which has very little to do with shape of fingers. if, for instance when you crimp, you can have all of your tips beautifully lined up on a small edge, that open-handed you could not, then the only reason that you would not be able to hold it half-crimped would be down to weakness, nothing else, just weakness, and that is easily addressed
Quote from: rodma on June 28, 2012, 02:07:34 pmQuote from: Serpico on June 28, 2012, 10:18:40 amYou need to see the picture in the context of the blog it came from to understand the point it was illustrating.Fair dos, didn't really have the time. Edit: Not sorry, have now read article and i stand by my commmentsIt's just quite a common mistake to think that because you can open hand hang (albeit by the skin dragging) a very small edge that this will in some way translate to anything other than small holds that rely on this type of friction, utilising that exact griptype.If, on the otherhand you are half-crimping an 18mm edge to start with, then half crimping a 9mm edge (or smaller) will not be twice as hard as this.The point Eva was making that training on small holds has certain limitations because of skin and conditions and having the right shaped fingers.I'm not sure what point you are making but you don't seem to be disagreeing with that
Quote from: Serpico on June 28, 2012, 10:18:40 amYou need to see the picture in the context of the blog it came from to understand the point it was illustrating.Fair dos, didn't really have the time. Edit: Not sorry, have now read article and i stand by my commmentsIt's just quite a common mistake to think that because you can open hand hang (albeit by the skin dragging) a very small edge that this will in some way translate to anything other than small holds that rely on this type of friction, utilising that exact griptype.If, on the otherhand you are half-crimping an 18mm edge to start with, then half crimping a 9mm edge (or smaller) will not be twice as hard as this.
You need to see the picture in the context of the blog it came from to understand the point it was illustrating.
Sorry if this sounds basic but i just want to clear something up. Is this a supplementary training program that you do as well as climbing loads or do you really just need to train for 30-40 mins once every three days for 9 weeks with a whole week of rest in the middle to get really strong fingers??? If so its ideal for my busy lifestyle.
I still don't see how doing 3-5 10 sec long max hangs is going to count as a session. i have just started doing a 45 min beastmaker session after warm ups (6 holds x 6 hangs (7 secs) each x 3 sets = total hang time of 756 secs) and probably do 10 max hangs of around 4-6 secs before i start repeaters after warming up. Trying (failing) to do this 3 times a week and seeing good improvements.
I still don't see how doing 3-5 10 sec long max hangs is going to count as a session. i have just started doing a 45 min beastmaker session after warm ups (6 holds x 6 hangs (7 secs) each x 3 sets = total hang time of 756 secs) and probably do 10 max hangs of around 4-6 secs before i start repeaters after warming up. Trying (failing) to do this 3 times a week and seeing good improvements.Compare that to her regime where i would only be doing 120 secs, does not add up.
SharkThat makes more sense. Its complimentary to climbing and not not a substitute for climbing. That makes more sense.However it makes a bit of a mess of Sasquatchs training program. To me that looks like he is going to end up being good at running.I still don't see how doing 3-5 10 sec long max hangs is going to count as a session. i have just started doing a 45 min beastmaker session after warm ups (6 holds x 6 hangs (7 secs) each x 3 sets = total hang time of 756 secs) and probably do 10 max hangs of around 4-6 secs before i start repeaters after warming up. Trying (failing) to do this 3 times a week and seeing good improvements.Compare that to her regime where i would only be doing 120 secs, does not add up.
SerpicoBut is her training program on advocating between 30 and 50 secs (3-5 hangs) per session. Therefore not in line with your 60-120.The sets of repeaters on a BM are also far from maximal hangs but then neither are hers.
However it makes a bit of a mess of Sasquatchs training program. To me that looks like he is going to end up being good at running.
The sets of repeaters on a BM are also far from maximal hangs but then neither are hers.
Quote from: gme on June 29, 2012, 02:38:46 pmSerpicoBut is her training program on advocating between 30 and 50 secs (3-5 hangs) per session. Therefore not in line with your 60-120.The sets of repeaters on a BM are also far from maximal hangs but then neither are hers.It's a much smaller muscle mass in the forearms so I don't see an issue with less hang time, especially when you factor in the warm ups as well. If you look at the chart I linked to previously you can see that the smaller muscle groups seemed to respond with less total contraction time than the larger groups. It's not a switch where 59 secs will do nothing and 60secs will, it varies between muscle groups, as well as individuals, depending on their genetics and previous training experience. What makes the Lopez work interesting is that she's done this study with climbers who have substantial previous training history and she's seen good gains (within the context of the exercise).