[Baron]

Road? Really?

[dave]

So getting back to my earlier point which was conveniently ignored, would you drive a 4x4 through the middle of stonehenge if you managed to convince yourself you had a dubious "right" to do it?

[Baron]

Ok, in your opinion what would constitute proper maintenance of Stanage Causeway if considered, for arguments sake, as a road?

1. Back to original condition and re-surfaced with cobbles?
This is an unsustainable solution for continuing use by motor vehicles, as demonstrated by its current condition, so how about...

2. Re-surfaced in tarmac?
This is inappropriate given its location in a SSSI etc. and would, in providing a surface fit for purpose, ironically render the attraction of driving the causeway redundant for said motor vehicle users.

[SamT]

Just a thought, but if I drove my vehicle repeatedly, up and down a small road, perhaps someones cul-de-sac, I dont know,  for the sake of analogy, lets make it a road of historical and national, if not international importance, Downing street for instance (I know I know, you cant actually drive up downing street), Pall Mall or the royal mile in Edinburgh.  All purely for my own enjoyment, but, as a car tax payer, I could, and had the right to, despite it being incredibly annoying and disturbing to all the residents.  Lets say I'm driving a Fred dibnah traction engine or a tank with my catagory H licence.  All legal like, Every day, back and forth, back and forth, since its my right, under the law, and I enjoy the challenge of it. Every day my vehicle damaged the surface of the road, continually, and progressively, way beyond the normal levels of road use.  But hey, thats not my problem, it's just

being poorly maintained for me to be there

.  Back and forth, back and forth. 

How long would I last before the law got involved and told me I couldn't do it any more.  I wonder what laws they'd bring to bear to prevent me from continuing to exercise my right. 

Just a thought   

[burned]

Hmm Dave, normally I see your posts as being pretty provocotive, as you have never really had anything positive to contribute, and I understand why.. you have a grudge, it may not be against me personally, but I get it nevertheless..

Stonehenge.. would I drive through it.. Probaly not. But I dont see the moors in the same way. It may seem wierd, but I do think that the moors are regenerative, and stonehenge isnt. It probably seems wierd, but you may have just stumbled apon another possible suggestion.. that the lanes are open in rotation? (probably would just lead to overcrowding if only one was open at a time, but there is a seed to be planted)

Baron, thanks for asking some questions.. like I said before.. I am not really the guy to ask about the best way to engineed a robust surface that will drain water and still offer the "hardcore" guys a bit of trail pleasure.. but I could see how large cobbles could work (like the coping stones on a pavement sized "cobbles?), with perhaps some rocky obsticles to keep speed and traffic down?

We have all seen how recent resurfacing with gravel or whatever into a "motorway" has not been popular with many, it does improve wheelchair access, but for mountainbikes, or even walkers it is horribly boring to walk on let alone the landcruiser owners.

Can you guys throw me some criticism as to why a rotation system wouldnt work? As in, we close a route for a year or two to recover then open it only in the summer when its dry? Its never been discussed before. How much could a trail recover in a year or two? Would it lead to overcrowding when its reopened? Is there anything else I can bring short of "shut it down" that could still benifit other users?

I was climbing in Norway this year and I noticed that many of the smaller summer roads over the mountains were "toll" roads. It was just a noticeboard with a postbox attached to it, and it was left to the "good natured norwegians" to leave the right amount in the box.. Would this be another option do you think? to make it a Toll road?

Bowmore helps you think....

[leeroy]

Stonehenge.. would I drive through it.. Probaly not. But I dont see the moors in the same way. It may seem wierd, but I do think that the moors are regenerative, and stonehenge isnt.

the only way the "road" regenerates is if its worked on by human hand. left to regenerate by itself it would perhaps stay the same / likely get worse, though at least not to the extent that 4x4s cause.

heres a question anyways, why is stanage seen as being such a fantastic location to drive a truck about on? surely there are far more challenging/enjoyable locations elsewhere. or is it maybe nothing to do with the quality of the drive and instead a bloody minded statement to try and drive up there?

[Johnny Brown]

Can you guys throw me some criticism as to why a rotation system wouldnt work? As in, we close a route for a year or two to recover then open it only in the summer when its dry?

Firstly, from what I've seen so far it would be totally ignored. I do appreciate there is a core of 4x4 users who are actually pretty responsible. However the other end of the spectrum are idiots with no respect for others or the countryside. Unfortunately until you can bring these guys within some kind of control or peer group, such plans don't work. Judging by some of the drivers I've met (quads on Ringinglow bog for instance) you've a mountain to climb. And its not Snowdon.

Secondly, as leeroy has pointed out, these tracks will not 'regenerate'. They are man made and will have to be repaired. If you struggle to understand why the Causeway excites such strong emotions, it may be because you never saw the beautiful piece of workmanship it used to be. A serious problem is that such stone-laying skills simply don't exist any more. There are very few other examples left in the Peak, I guess the others have long been tarmaced or destroyed. Shame.

PS props for actually attempting to have a reasonable debate.

[Snoops]

Can you guys throw me some criticism as to why a rotation system wouldnt work? As in, we close a route for a year or two to recover then open it only in the summer when its dry?

Firstly, from what I've seen so far it would be totally ignored. I do appreciate there is a core of 4x4 users who are actually pretty responsible.

Agreed - the causeway itself being case and point. When it was first 'temporarily' close this year due to erosion, the concrete blocks at the redmires end were dragged out of the way and into ditches by some 4x4's with chains in order that they could carry on as normal. twats

[blacky]

It may seem wierd, but I do think that the moors are regenerative, and stonehenge isnt.

That is a fairly simplistic view Burned! The Peak District moorlands are largely 'made' of peat, which doesn't regenerate easily, if at all here, due to a range of factors. Once you remove the vegetation and damage the peat it dries out and washes away, removing several millenia of stored carbon and costing the water companies literally millions of pounds a year to remove the discoloration it causes. The same goes for green lanes, once the vegetation is removed you end up with a surface that is easily eroded by the weather meaning that vegetation regrowth, at least of the same stable communities that were there before, is slow.

No need to spell out why man-made tracks don't naturally regenerate

I don't particularly condone it as a landuse, but what's wrong with using a purpose built 4x4 track?

[burned]

hi all, thanks for taking the time to reply.

good points have been raised regarding my comments on driving over the moor road compared to stonehenge, and to keep things on track, lets ignore the raw comparison between sites (no disrespect to Dave) and focus purely on the regeneration issue?

I am sure that the last 15 months that the TRO has been in place will really put down on paper the level of work that needs to be done,  the causeway will most likely not show any improvement, most likely the opposite given the damage that has been done already and continued erosion from the weather/remaining users - and that some sort of intervention is needed, both in the case that it should continue to be used as a vehicular highway, or that it should be closed and used only as a bike trail/footpath to combat future degridation.

I have already put the feelers out this morning with regard to new ways of funding in both cases, and how the project would be best served. Toll system, or Paying for a permit, in the same way that a fishing permit is issued?

I have also contacted a few magazines and Landrover stockists to see what level of interest there is to push forward a campaign similar to neighbourhood watch, and promote awareness among the 4x4 community that redneck behaviour is a real problem, and until they step up and do something about themselves, they are as much a part of the problem as the people in their cars - it remains to be seen how enthusiastic the businesses are getting involved in essentially cruicifying some of their customers, but I did remind them that they have a moral obligation to do so.

Snoops, I have also put the word out there regarding the redneck behaviour with the concrete blocks. I have noticed it is already spreading through the LR forums and on Facebook. There is little more that I can do now, but what I am hoping to do is for people to start openly criticizing bad behaviour by others out on the trails.

I think the main fear other than being assaulted of course is that openly posting bad behaviour will be used against the group as a whole in the future. It is only a matter of time before people realize that it is very seldom that such things go unnoticed by others anyway, and it is far better to show responsibility and blow the whistle ourselves despite the reprocussions.

Comments please on anything above, and;
Has anyone seen or have any ideas for a gate system that can be put in place?, will a simple gate with padlock suffice given that concrete blocks have not done the job?

Should there be locked gates along the length of the trail as opposed to one at either end? (would this restrict access to other users or perhaps even encourage idiots to try and find another route around that are not supposed to be there)

How have you all enforced local bans keeping people off routes that have been volountarily closed?

perhaps permits and Keys be collected in person from a ranger at the same time a permit is paid for? (how often should keys be roatated to stop copies being used?)

[csurfleet]

Hi burned. I appreciate that you are having a sensible discussion here, but you have repeatedly ignored the question about why you could not use a custom-made 4x4 course instead, which to me is the main part I don't understand - why?

[burned]

  Csurfleet

all around the country there are what we call "pay and play" sites, they are really popular in scotland as up there green lanes do not exist, everyone I know uses them, and they provide a hasstle free, controlled enviroment where it is possible to socialize and park up without feeling that you are detracting from someone elses day out.. they give a great variety of different obsticles and are a great place to learn how to drive offroad without being stranded in the middle of nowhere with diff oil leaking in to the moor for example.

Scotland proves that there is room for operating such a system. It is hard to reply to your question on behalf of every driver in the UK, personal preference is exactly that.

I can say that I personally have only been up stanage once a year in a motorised vehicle. Otherwise I use other lanes outside the park, or pay and plays. Variation is always good, and pay and plays cost money to go to. You dont always climb indoors do you?

Again, sorry for not replying sooner... I thought you were making a statement rather than asking a question.

[csurfleet]

Thanks for the response, my general stance on fits with grumpycrumpys, I just don't see the appeal compared to alternatives I guess!

It can't be because they enjoy the scenery, if they did they'd park their vehicles at the bottom of a track and walk like the rest of us ......... It can't be because they appreciate seeing wildlife in it's natural habitat because if they did they wouldn't drive their vehicles so close to SSSI's and thus destroying what they'd come to view ........ It can't be the challenge as there so many disused quarries which could be sculpted to provide them with far more thrills ........

[Monk]

Hi burned. I appreciate that you are having a sensible discussion here, but you have repeatedly ignored the question about why you could not use a custom-made 4x4 course instead, which to me is the main part I don't understand - why?

I know that it can be hard to comprehend, but it is exactly the same with climbing and biking - they are all fairly irrational when viewed from the outside. Why do people still ride footpaths when there are lots of trail centres dotted about? Why do we climb on natural rock outcrops when there are plenty of indoor walls and quarries to climb in?

I'm not into off-roading, but plenty of my friends are (in the South East, so not causing Peak problems), and they all seem to love it and rave about it in much the same way we do about climbing - solving problems and applying skill.  I think we need to get beyond the 'why do you do it?' ("because it's there!") and focus on solving the specific issues, and accept that an outright blanket ban will never work unless accompanied by either strong enforcement or some incentives to play elsewhere.

[chris j]

How have you all enforced local bans keeping people off routes that have been volountarily closed?

Permanently closed areas are generally in climbing guidebooks, as are long term seasonal restrictions (eg for nesting birds).

For up to date information the BMC has the Regional Access Database which you can check online. Restrictions are also publicized online and in the magazines. Sometimes there are signs and markers at the crags but this is probably the exception rather than the norm.

As for how it is enforced - peer pressure and public condemnation/ridicule (eg on internet forums) of those found ignoring restrictions. If you see someone ignoring a restriction then have a word as they might not know. There will always be a few muppets that think they know better though and that is why we can lose access to crags. The thing is it needs the wider climbing (or in your case off-road/greenlane) community onboard for it work and this is realistically only likely to happen after you lose access to a couple of high profile areas, at which point everyone involved realizes they have a stake and need to behave in what the wider public eye sees as a reasonable manner (not necessarily what you as 4x4ists might see as reasonable).

[chris j]

Incidentally I think you are onto a loser with the idea that the Causeway could be maintained to still give some driving challenge - as Baron said above I think any public body tasked with restoring/resurfacing would either choose the traditional construction and then close the road to motor vehicles as the surface has been shown not to stand up to use, or, as they have done recently with the bike trails, cover it with gravel / tarmac in the name of access for all.

[Obi-Wan is lost...]

Baron (and others) have made an important point. One issue is there is no happy medium to please all the 4x4ers. Like climbers they have a wide range of skills and abilities so a track for one novice driver will be impassable but for another will be a challenge.

For the higher end of the technical challenges, this involves the weight of a 2 ton vehicle and maybe a couple of hundred horsepower being put down through the tyres, unsurprisingly this causes erosion and damage to any even remotely loose surface every time. Even tarmac doesn't last long under this level of assault.

You don't have to watch one of these videos for long http://wn.com/landrover_stanage_edge until you'll see rocks and boulders being moved by the vehicles wheels.  Mountain Bikers, walkers and horse riders all cause some erosion, and popular footpaths and bridleways do need to be maintained. However the amount of erosion by a single user is minuscule whereas in many cases a single pass of a 4x4 will cause significant and measurable damage to the track. Foothpaths might be repaired once in a decade whereas to maintain a surface with this level of constant erosion a repair team would need to be there every month.

This is why some purpose built 4x4 tracks have interlocking concrete surfaces on their steep or technical sections as the owners know without it the erosion would be unsustainable. This level of unavoidable erosion is completely incompatible with any route or track of any historical importance or in any area of natural beauty/national park etc, irrespective of it's legal status.

[Monk]

You don't have to watch one of these videos for long http://wn.com/landrover_stanage_edge until you'll see rocks and boulders being moved by the vehicles wheels. 

Holy shit! I haven't been on the causeway for a few years now. That is seriously churned up from when I was last there.

[Johnny Brown]

Yep. Over the last few years the damage has been very depressing. I doubt the 4x4ers have any concept of what a beautiful thing it used to be.

[Nigel]

Yep. Over the last few years the damage has been very depressing. I doubt the 4x4ers have any concept of what a beautiful thing it used to be.

Regarding the above - I'm 30, not exactly ancient (?!). My first memory of visiting this end of Stanage is aged 16/17, so probably 1998/99 ish. My memory is of a fairly neatly made incline, with a sort of cobbled surface. I remember quite clearly being struck by the sense of human history. I could imagine it being used by a packhorse or even horse and cart on that day. Does no one else have a similar recollection? Or one from further back in the past? I'm really surprised that I can't find any pictures online to demonstrate this, but I think the picture below from Page 1 of this thread is worth a repost. Its from 2006. Anyone who is familiar with the causeway now will hardly recognise it from this picture. It has certainly changed beyond ALL RECOGNITION since my first visit. Now I don't know when it was buit (anyone?), but the fact it had lasted in a substantially recognisable state until at least 1999, which I guess is 100s of years, then in the last decade it has been completely destroyed is an absolute outrage. It is due to 4x4s. These clearly have no place driving the moors, I'm afraid that I can't formulate a cogent argument (although obviously they exist!) since to me it is so patently wrong. I have ever met a moors user who thinks otherwise apart from a 4x4 driver I saw stuck past his axle in the bog quite a long way downhill from the causeway, who I happily left to his fate.

Just looking at the below picture makes me angry for what has been lost. Thankfully it looks like 4x4'ers are on the wrong side of history in this debate; sadly they have already destroyed most of it already.

this photo is from 2006. don't know if it's any use. it's from a phone so small.

tbh i haven't been up there recently is it different to this?

[dave]

I'm sure on one of the threads on here someone found a photo online of the causeway from the 80s or 90s - looked pretty pristine. Whereas today it looks a fucking disgrace.

[Johnny Brown]

My first memory of visiting this end of Stanage is aged 16/17, so probably 1998/99 ish. My memory is of a fairly neatly made incline, with a sort of cobbled surface. I remember quite clearly being struck by the sense of human history. I could imagine it being used by a packhorse or even horse and cart on that day. Does no one else have a similar recollection?

Yes, that's exactly as it was up til the late nineties. Near the top it was a properly laid surface, I think including two rows of large slabs for cart wheels. I've looked for photos before and struggled to find any, though I think there is a similar track surviving in the NW Peak.

Click on Obi's link if you want to see the current state. Of most concern to the county council (and hence the closure) is the potential collapse of the revetment.

[Nigel]

Thought so, thanks for confirming that. I know its probably not a historical treasure, but regardless the willfull destruction of it by 4x4s seems so at odds with the concept of the National Park (not to mention the antisocial nature of it RE other users) as to boggle the mind. If similar happened in the climbing community it would be self policed as soon as it was noticed. The fact is that this didn't happen in the 4x4 community because the destruction is exactly what they wanted, hence my use of the word "willfull" earlier. Hopefully they will fuck off for good to somewhere where it doesn't matter what a hash of the landscape they make. A National Park can never be appropriate.

In this case the law has been an ass in keeping it a highway for so long, as Dave says its historical hangover. In the same way that I don't go to Chester to take advantage of my "legal right" to skewer a Welshman on the basis that I'll get done for murder, I would hope any right-thinking person would restrain from driving a car through a delicate upland area, despite being "legally allowed" to do so. it is a great sadness that the NP could not have pushed this harder earlier, surely they have some statuatory powers to lever against Highways? Or is that what is happening, and sadly the time of due process has allowed the 4x4 lobby to finish off the causeway?

[Obi-Wan is lost...]

Depressing viewing but posted as evidence of my earlier argument that a single vehicle can do significant damage. Watch around 1:00 the amount of stones being shifted.

[burned]

well there you have it right there...  the fukwit in all its glory. Shocking that he couldnt get his car through there any smoother than that.

The first clip Obi posted was from 2007, and this most recently posted one from 2009. There is some small amount of consolation, in that today, the track, although far different from 30 years ago, hasnt actually degraded much (subjective comparison) in the last 10 15 years of usage from what we see in the videos. and that the slabs up the top remain in place in all their glory (I only write this for the benifit of the keyboard warriors out there, who have not actually been up, It may be worth taking your lazy ass into the park before injecting more "fuck offs" ? )

Re the concrete blocks.. I still dont know who moved them, but I read on another forum that a Landrover Owner at work, came across someone trying to move them, and while holding a shotgun had a stern word. It does seem that as soon as the back is turned, that the idiots will still come out to play.

perhaps it takes a TRO on a lane or two for more people to share my opinion.. who knows.. maybe its easier not to give a toss when everyone is on your back and just do what you are already getting blamed for? Either way it needs to start with people talking to one another, and not about one another.