[Johnny Brown]

Well you lot are, clearly. This attitude that you are legally permitted to drive down it, therefore it should be maintained for you I find ridiculous. I once drove a Peugeot 205 over Houndkirk, before the track was trashed by 4x4s. I didn't feel a need to do it again because it felt completely wrong even if entirely legal. Much less whinge on that as a taxpayer it should be maintained in such a condition for my, or anyone else's, small hatchback. And I'm sure if it was you wouldn't be very happy as you'd lose the 'challenge'. Unfortunately said 'challenge' only exists when you are driving a track in poor state of repair, hence you have a problem.

The reason you have a right to drive on these roads/ tracks is a historical quirk and was clearly never intended for large numbers of recreational users coming from near and far. The track should be closed to wheeled traffic other than horse-drawn, then you'd have something close to the original situation.

There have been several attempts to introduce controls, voluntary or otherwise, to the causeway - one way, limiting groups etc. All have been roundly ignored by the 4x4 community. Whilst bans on paths to reduce erosion, and on climbs to protect birds, and have been hugely successful and almost 100% respected. Then when the track is finally closed every walker and climber on the edge gets to watch 4x4s cutting across open SSSI moorland to get to the track. This is why everyone thinks you are a bunch of cunts, and why you will lose access.

[burned]

you are legally permitted to drive down it, therefore it should be maintained for you I find ridiculous.

we are all entitled to have an opinion on who the cunts are...

[Johnny Brown]

So in your ideal world these would all be blacktop would they?

[grumpycrumpy]

I've never been able to understand why 4x4 drivers feel the need to use these 'roads', and yes historically it has been a road since Roman times, in areas of great natural beauty ....... It can't be because they enjoy the scenery, if they did they'd park their vehicles at the bottom of a track and walk like the rest of us ......... It can't be because they appreciate seeing wildlife in it's natural habitat because if they did they wouldn't drive their vehicles so close to SSSI's and thus destroying what they'd come to view ........ It can't be the challenge as there so many disused quarries which could be sculpted to provide them with far more thrills ........ Could it be they just enjoy winding the rest of us up ? ......... That their pleasure comes at being sworn at by some walker they've just forced to jump out of the way ? ......... Their arguments sadly remind me of those who 'avoid' paying tax by saying that they're doing nothing illegal and can't see the immorality of their actions and the impact that they have on others .........             

[burned]

for the same reason that we dont use the stairs, and instead bolt/chalk up the routes... duh...

[slackline]

Where is the physical & mental challenge in sitting behind a wheel?

[burned]

questioning the mental challenge in choosing a line offroad, is just like saying all we do is follow the bolts when climbing....

physically it can be as tiring as you want.. especially if you are a codriver.

[slackline]

I think there is a world of difference involved when you are using a machine with a motor v's using judgement and tenacity to not kill yourself.

They're chalk and cheese really so there's little point in trying to draw comparisons (and the climbing around Stanage is traditional not bolted).

[dave]

Questions about the aesthetics or the challenge of 4x4 s are totally irrelevent, as as discussions about the legality. What is relevent is the fact that driving a landrover along stanage causeway or houndkirk is utterly morally indefensible, and to anyone with half a braincell its also a totally unsustainable activity even in the short term. You are not performing heroic deeds here fetching an old lady her shopping in the snow, or rescuing a wounded soldier behind enemy lines, or on the trail of ivory poachers in the african savannah. You are ruining a National Park, and a regional icon and beauty spot (infact fuck it, stanage has international significance). Would you drive a 4x4 across stonehenge or machu picchu, even if you had a map stating there was a BOAT there? I would hope you wouldn't, so don't do it at stanage either.

[grumpycrumpy]

for the same reason that we dont use the stairs, and instead bolt/chalk up the routes... duh...

Sorry, but that doesn't really answer my question ........ I think the crux of what I'm what I'm trying to understand is why practice your hobby in an area where it upsets just about everybody, there seems to be a perverseness in your nature that I really can't get my head around ........ And it must be quite challenging to drive up Long Causeway these days, it's completely unrecognisable from the day I first walked up it 43 years ago , in a few years time parts of the track/'road will have turned into a scree slope.......... Do you ever feel a slight twinge of guilt knowing that through your need for a 'mental and physical challenge' your affecting whole swathes of people, the residents of Great Longstone spring to mind, or do you let the whole 'it's always been a road therefore we have the right to drive up it' argument, that appears to be your sole justification, run through your mind as you trundle your Range Rover over another protest ? ........... Surely rather wasting your time fighting what is going to be a long drawn out battle, wouldn't you be better off using your resources to find and develop suitable locations in places where you wouldn't be constantly harangued by 'nutjobs ? ......... See, there's a mental challenge for you ? ........       

[chris j]

for the same reason that we dont use the stairs, and instead bolt/chalk up the routes... duh...

Though in terms of the damage left after you've passed through, it's more akin to pegging your way up Millstone's classic crack climbs, something that it's come to be accepted that we shouldn't do anymore.

[burned]

wow a lot of feedback...

I dont see myself destroying a national park. I see it being poorly maintained for me to be there. I have a right to be there, and drive difficult terrain just as much as someone does to climb, or ride.

[grumpycrumpy]

How exactly is it poorly maintained ? ........ And if it really is poorly maintained for you to be there why not think of going somewhere else .......... Again, why not consider developing your own venue, you could, with a limited amount of knowhow, even build your replica of the Long Causeway and destroy it at your leisure ......       

[stom]

wow a lot of feedback...

I dont see myself destroying a national park. I see it being poorly maintained for me to be there. I have a right to be there, and drive difficult terrain just as much as someone does to climb, or ride.

Poorly maintained???  You dont see climbers whinging that landing areas are poorly maintained... they go and do something about it as per the plantation a couple of years ago.  Mountainbikers the same..... just have a look at what Ride Sheffield are doing about having organised trail repair days.  I've heard of walkers volunteering to help rangers with footpath maintenance, but as of yet all the 4x4 community seem to want to do is destroy the trails and then whinge that the local authorities/national parks aren't doing their job.  TBH I can't wait for the first BOAT to be closed to motorised vehicles.... I feel it may then open the floodgates and we'll finally get the national parks back to the way they should be!

[TobyD]

I dont see myself destroying a national park. I see it being poorly maintained for me to be there. I have a right to be there, and drive difficult terrain just as much as someone does to climb, or ride.

Would you not agree that a 4x4 (much less a convoy of them) has a vastly greater erosive impact than a climber, a cyclist or a walker? Surely your argument is tantamount to me going down the town centre with a skateboard and a few spray cans, grinding up some benches and tagging the place, and then complaining that the city is 'not well enough maintained' for my recreational use?

[burned]

wow a lot of feedback...

I dont see myself destroying a national park. I see it being poorly maintained for me to be there. I have a right to be there, and drive difficult terrain just as much as someone does to climb, or ride.

Poorly maintained???  You dont see climbers whinging that landing areas are poorly maintained... they go and do something about it as per the plantation a couple of years ago. 

Have you ever tried to go out onto the main road and start filling in holes? REALLY, HAVE YOU? These are Highways, under the control of the Highway Authority, mostly DCC. There are resistant to all approaches for volunteer aid. So get a fkin clue...

How exactly is it poorly maintained ? ........

Ask an engineer that works with roads.. the best you will get out of me I am afraid, is throw on some more topsoil and dig a ditch to drain water away?

Driving in another venue is of course an option!  , but, really that would only help improve the situation if you found someone that drove exclusively on the moors...

[dave]

The causeway is maintained to the level appropriate to a historic carthorse track (cos that's what it is) bearing in mind the level of horsedrawn traffic its likely to get in the 21st century.

[burned]

Sorry Toby, I missed your post and wouldnt want your points to go ignored...

does a car do more damage than a walker... or a biker...?

well you could argue that a walker tends to walk around muddy puddles.. widning the path... or a bike creates a far deeper channel in mud for water to run down?. But, of course a car does more damage, unless we are talking about a 2 ton fat mamma on a bike, or stomping down the trail....

But a car driver also pays road tax, 4x4 drivers normally pay even more than most, and just like any other road with traffic.. That tax money is used to maintain the roads. Unlike a walker, or a bike user who pays squat and still gets nice trails to use.

Dave, LoL.... I would LOVE to see a horse pull something up there.. although I am sure if we were to beat one hard enough like they did in the "good ol days" that we could make it happen!. We could wear our Hipster glasses and enjoy the nostalgia of the moment..

[chris j]

I have a right to be there, and drive difficult terrain just as much as someone does to climb, or ride.

Just because you have 'right' do something it doesn't mean it's acceptable or that you should. See my post immediately above yours for something that for climbers used to be acceptable. Theoretically we could still go out and do it but it's now understood and accepted that hammering pegs into cracks in the rock is something we shouldn't do because of the damage it causes...

[burned]

Just because you have 'right' do something it doesn't mean it's acceptable or that you should.

Chris, you are right.. and we have tried.. but it isnt so easy closing a road without the support of the highways agency or police. We have tried it on other trails, but until we have the support of the relivant agencies involved, we are powerless. (I will refer you to earlier comments about closing the roads on public holidays, bank weekends and restricting daily traffic by imposing a permit system)

I will continue to read and try to reply to as many suggestions and comments as possible, but I encourage you all to read earlier comments before asking away.

[grumpycrumpy]

Just because you have 'right' do something it doesn't mean it's acceptable or that you should.

Chris, you are right.. and we have tried.. but it isnt so easy closing a road without the support of the highways agency or police. We have tried it on other trails, but until we have the support of the relivant agencies involved, we are powerless. (I will refer you to earlier comments about closing the roads on public holidays, bank weekends and restricting daily traffic by imposing a permit system)

I will continue to read and try to reply to as many suggestions and comments as possible, but I encourage you all to read earlier comments before asking away.

Interesting Burned......... So you recognise that your activity is somewhat unacceptable and have tried  to get your fellow enthusiasts to also recognise this fact ....... Kudos ......... Sadly all you're saying is that those same fellow enthusiasts are ignorant and pig-headed, maybe not all, but enough   .........  Even you have to admit that this is a sad indictment of your community ....... 

[metal arms]

But a car driver also pays road tax, 4x4 drivers normally pay even more than most, and just like any other road with traffic.. That tax money is used to maintain the roads. Unlike a walker, or a bike user who pays squat and still gets nice trails to use.

It's not road tax it's car tax and isn't used to maintain the roads.  A quick google suggests 'since 1937 there has been no direct relationship between the tax and government expenditure on public roads.'  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Road_tax#United_Kingdom

[slackline]

A lot of what is being said here isn't directly relevant to the campaign to the "Save Stanage Causeway" campaign and is already covered in the much longer Illegal use of Hounkirk Right of Wayby Vehicles thread.

[Baron]

I dont see myself destroying a national park. I see it being poorly maintained for me to be there.

And it needs to be maintained because its being destroyed by...

Less 'me' more 'we' mate.

[burned]

hi guys.. ok lets get through this...

Baron.. I dont want to sound like a dick... but really? a road needing to be maintained because cars use it?? Seems quite reasonable to me, us.. everyone that uses any road?

RU.. are you stating the obvious, or just like finding new ways to re-hash some of the issues already covered?

Moving on...

Sadly, as grumpy said... there are more than a few morons out there willing to have us all painted with the same brush.. We have worked with the Police in Derbyshire in the past with Operation Blackbrook to try and both realize, and begin to eliminate the problem..

http://www.treadlightly-uk.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=58&Itemid=2

The treadlightly crew are a nice bunch, and we have worked together with them to push forward guidelines and try to promote scouring on those not behaving honourably.

I could go on... and tell you about the work with PPCV and all that.. but, it is pointless.. because even as many of you read these words, you will imagine an antisocial, macdonalds eating bear grylls wannabe sitting here writing them, eagerly awaiting my next encounter with someone wearing goretex out on the trail so I can rev my engine, beep my horn and flash my lights to distract from me throwing litter out of the window.

I will finally digress to Metals comments on road tax... or as I should stand corrected, vehicle tax!. You are right of course, I apologise, stand corrected and openly admit that I dont know everything (I actually didnt know this)

Keep the ideas coming /debate going (other than the obvious one)