[b3n99]

So I'm off the Rocklands in August and am thinking that body tension may be a weakness that gets exploited out there big time!! I already do a fair few sit ups/push ups/leg raise chin ups which are great but I think I'm lacking in the full body tension (keeping your feet on miles away) department. I can front lever with one leg up to my chest quite comfortably and was wondering if anyone else uses any other exercises apart from the front lever training to improve this aspect.
Any knowledge appreciated.
Cheers

[Sasquatch]

DEADLIFTS!!!!!!!

1/2 of core tension comes out of your legs and lower back, and most of keeping your feet on is derived from that area.

Another one which sounds funny is calf and toe strength.  I never realized how strong my toes were until  we were doing party tricks while drinking one night and found out I could actually go "en pointe" like a ballerinaand stand on the tips of my big toe (we had a dancer there who thought for sure no one else could do it).....

I would suggest doing barefoot calf raises on a 1/2 to 3/4 inch edge....

[lmarenzi]

Pumping iron is cool and all, but body tension is mostly technique driven so not sure it would help much unless you are 8 ft tall or have the abs of a wet noodle.

Ankle flexibility and toe strength on the other hand are brilliant and totally overlooked. They will give you an extra inch off virtually every move, as well as making it possible to dig the toe in on really overhanging rock.

Training barefoot? 

[jwi]

I disagree. Hips don't lie: look at any video of the world cup in difficulty, it is quite common for finalists to first lose body tension and then inevitably fall off a few moves later.  I'd go as far as saying that almost the only reason the top finalist fall at the end of the route is because they cant keep their back straight anymore, and therefore put too high stress on the (too tired) fingers and arms.

[lmarenzi]

Hips don't lie

 

But when the hips come away from the wall, is it because the climber's technique went to pot relative to the climbing, or is it that the abs are simply not strong enough?

In other words, is the problem that your abs are weak or that you asked them to do more than was necessary, or maybe stopped thinking about then altogether when you started struggling?

If your problem is regularly falling off boulders that you attempted using demonstrably perfect beta with cramp in your abs or sides or quads, but feeling pretty good everywhere else ... you have isolated the culprit and you need some  . A good core will never hurt you and a six pack can be handy when pulling burds at the beach ... but it won't make you a better climber unless its a real problem for you.

[b3n99]

Interesting to see the difference in opinion here. I can't help to notice everyone I climb with that boulders harder me has a stronger core (measured by terms of a front lever). This isn't through specific training so i tend to think that it must be a good thing. Also the ability to keep your feet on while stretched on a steep board must be something to do with core (especially the back)?

[Probes]

Ask this fella if core strength works? The chaps quite handy in a pair of running shoes too, a know a few runners whose core is actually pretty strong! But Im guessing he worked pretty hard and pretty specifically on core.

Planks are also great for lower back strength.

[rodma]

Interesting to see the difference in opinion here. I can't help to notice everyone I climb with that boulders harder me has a stronger core (measured by terms of a front lever). This isn't through specific training so i tend to think that it must be a good thing. Also the ability to keep your feet on while stretched on a steep board must be something to do with core (especially the back)?

Owning a pair of chicken legs usually equates to being able to easily do a front lever.

Ability to keep hips in is prodominantly lower back, not abs (you use those to curl up after all not straighten out)

[Sasquatch]

Pumping iron is cool and all, but body tension is mostly technique driven so not sure it would help much unless you are 8 ft tall or have the abs of a wet noodle.

It's not the abs that need training for most people.  Its their lower back. 

Hips don't lie

 

But when the hips come away from the wall, is it because the climber's technique went to pot relative to the climbing, or is it that the abs are simply not strong enough?

In other words, is the problem that your abs are weak or that you asked them to do more than was necessary, or maybe stopped thinking about then altogether when you started struggling?

If your problem is regularly falling off boulders that you attempted using demonstrably perfect beta with cramp in your abs or sides or quads, but feeling pretty good everywhere else ... you have isolated the culprit and you need some  . A good core will never hurt you and a six pack can be handy when pulling burds at the beach ... but it won't make you a better climber unless its a real problem for you.

Have you ever had your forearms "Cramp"?  I've never had mine cramp, but I'm sure they've failed on me before.  Cramping or even feeling tired in that area doesn't always show up even though it may lead to failure.  After training core, I've found that my hips don't tend to sag even when I'm tired as I have plenty of strength left in that area. 

I really think most climbers don't realize how much core strength they have vs how much they need.  I also find that more often than not, those climbers who say  body tension is "technique driven" tend to have strong cores and thus are able to use those techniques whereas most climbers with bad body tension have weak cores and thus can't use that technique you speak of.  This is sort of the chicken and the egg argument. 

Can you learn good technique for maintaining body tension without a strong core? I tend to think not, but that's just me. 

[andyd]

Don't forget endurance for rocklands. The problems are looooong compared to most in the UK

[lmarenzi]

Front lever strength is to do with abs though and will help you get and keep your feet on if terrain is steep. If you can generate enough tension you can get the purchase to pull your arse in to the wall (with the lower back) to get some weight on yer feet, but mostly creating the tension in the first place is the problem, not pulling your torso in, which uses the tension created to your advantage rather than creating it in the first place.

A strong lower back is cool, keeps the back pain away and will give you good posture, but it won't help you pull on the beach like abs will, so I am just a bit on it overall.

Deadlifts are fine by me too but I tend to do more high rep overhead squats with light weight and quite a bit of ab work so feel that my core is OK, and blame my technique 90% of the time when things go wrong. With my technique its always a good bet anyway.

Sasquatch, I have got plenty of cramp in my forearms btw, and have occasionally felt a bit of, eh, discomfort there just before coming off, and I don't think it's a unique experience. I don't tend to read too much into it because whatever you do wrong, the mode of failure in climbing will almost always be your fingers coming off the holds, so it doesn't really tell you much about what you might have done wrong.

Probes, in moments of very idle conjecture I have wondered what training, if any, that bald chap in the photo does. I assume the actual climbing is the easy part. Any clues?

[Sasquatch]

Front lever strength is to do with abs though and will help you get and keep your feet on if terrain is steep. If you can generate enough tension you can get the purchase to pull your arse in to the wall (with the lower back) to get some weight on yer feet, but mostly creating the tension in the first place is the problem, not pulling your torso in, which uses the tension created to your advantage rather than creating it in the first place.

Not quite sure I understand this.  I find that a weakness for most climbers is generating enough downward force on their feet when at extension on small footholds to keep their feet on the wall, regardless of their ability to get the feet there in the first place.  Now that may not be related to lower back and hamstring strength, but everyone I've worked with who has had this problem has seen massive improvement through deadlifts.

Personally I have weaker abs, but really good body tension.  Partly due to technique, but partly due to lower back strength.  I've clmibed with many guys who can get their feet back to the wall/hold no problem, but then can't really use the hold so their feet keep cutting.  I on the other hand have a hard time getting my foot there, but once it's there can use the foot no problem.

[lmarenzi]

Sorry was not clear.

1. Abs = front lever type strength = move up to and keep your feet on poor holds on steep terrain

2. lower back = thrust hips in = once you have points of contact on the rock you pull your centre of gravity in so more weight is on your feet

In my experience staying on the rock during the setting up phase (1.) is hard but moving my hips in to the wall once I am set up (tension has been established) is relatively easy (2.).

If you are doing quite a bit of deadlifting I would expect your core to be steel, front, back and sides, so not too sure about your "weak abs"!

[Sasquatch]

Relatively weak abs 

So I think of it slightly different.

1. abs = front lever type strength = get feet on wall

2. Lower back/Hamstring = engage the feet so that you control the amount of pressure exerted against the foothold. This can be hip thrust as you suggest, or simply being able to push on the footholds. 

I used to be quite poor at #1 as well, but I've learned that by only having my feet come off when I want, I can generate enough momentum to carry them to the next foot hold.  My feet pretty much never cut anymore unless I choose for them to cut and I think it's due to my back strength....  I could be wrong though.

[b3n99]

Cheers for the feedback guys, good to see a few different opinions. I think I'm going to prioritise front lever,plank, push ups and leg raise training and hit it pretty hard for a good month, see if things change. Have a few problems on the local board which i think i should be able to do without my feet cutting at all so will be a good tester to see if things improve. Also very true about the longer problems. I must say the lines I have my eye on tend to be the more 'classic' short hard boulder problem but is another aspect I'll look at training wise.
Cheers

[Sasquatch]

Good luck down there.  I'm insanely jealous. 

[a dense loner]

My own opinion is that all this core training won't help in any way on roofs, movement through roofs is much better. Ie I can do planks, raises n push ups all day but I'm still log at climbing in roofs. Whereas i know people that ave no strength in their core yet are pretty good cos of the way they move. I think specific core exercises are vastly overrated with regards to their crossover into climbing

[douglas]

Problems involving a lot of static tension are often quite slow to climb and thus you'll benefit from some finger endurance and I expect climbing makes you good at front levers more than front levers make you good at climbing because front levers are a static exercise and body tension needed in climbing is not static. If you're going to train front levers you could consider a dynamic entry into the exercise

Copied from 'Building the Gymnastic Body':

A sample cycle of embedded front levers
My adjustment to his protocol: (use various front lever pulls)
week 1: jump into the tuck lever
week 2: lower from inverted hang to tuck lever
week 3: pull from dead hang to tuck lever
week 4: lower from inverted hang to tuck lever, hold, pull back up
to inverted hang
week 5: pull to inverted hang, lower to tuck lever, hold
week 6: pull from dead hang to tuck lever, hold, pull up to
inverted hang
week 7: pull chin over the bar, front lever row to tuck lever, hold, pull chin back over bar
week 8: Perform a tuck Yewki to a bent-arm tuck lever hold, lower
to tuck lever, hold.

[Fultonius]

Cheers for the feedback guys, good to see a few different opinions. I think I'm going to prioritise front lever,plank, push ups and leg raise training and hit it pretty hard for a good month, see if things change.

I'm surprised after all the chat about the rear-chain strength (hamstrings, lower back, glutes) and its importance on steep ground, that you've chosen to select the 3 exercises that mainly target the abs and frontal core muscles??  Maybe ditch one of those and add in some deadlifts?

[rodma]

Cheers for the feedback guys, good to see a few different opinions. I think I'm going to prioritise front lever,plank, push ups and leg raise training and hit it pretty hard for a good month, see if things change.

I'm surprised after all the chat about the rear-chain strength (hamstrings, lower back, glutes) and its importance on steep ground, that you've chosen to select the 3 exercises that mainly target the abs and frontal core muscles??  Maybe ditch one of those and add in some deadlifts?

 

Think of the exercises that will improve your ability to "thrust" (for want of a better word) your hips forwards into the wall. where is the thust smiley anyway? found it 

[Nibile]

I think that the best training is very specifiic, strong abs are useless if one has weak shoulders. I think that strong shoulders are crucial to stabilize the positions, especially with holds above/behind your head as in roofs.
I think that setting specific boulder problems, or simply holding very strenuous positions in which the whole body is engaged, is more beneficial than lots of isolation exercises.

[abarro81]

Right then all you deadlift/lower back aficionados, I don't have access to the gym, and don't want to pay money to get it since that could fund climbing trips. Any advice on how to target this area with bodyweight exercises?

[Fultonius]

Pick up something fucking heavy.   

Stevie Haston style:

[Probes]

Right then all you deadlift/lower back aficionados, I don't have access to the gym, and don't want to pay money to get it since that could fund climbing trips. Any advice on how to target this area with bodyweight exercises?

 

[Nibile]

is this a cock lever?