[erm, sam]

Extensive amounts of self pleasuring.

[tomtom]

Extensive amounts of self pleasuring.

That's why my hands are shaky

[Oldmanmatt]

Board training has been around for quite some time now.

It's proven tech, with impressive results.

But, if climbing is the only training for climbing, then where is the next step coming from?

And Fiend is right, even if you have the opportunity to climb all day everyday, your body wouldn't let you.

You'd be a mass of over use injuries, tendonitis and shagged joints.

So deadlifting is probably not the be all and end all of training, but using free weights to address imbalance and to provide an element within a larger strength development programme; should help to prevent injury.

Developing thighs like a T-Rex on 'roids, will be detrimental to your climbing.
But using deadlifts and squats to condition and strengthen your posterior chain (ie, moderate weights and moderate reps), should make injury on the board/climbing less likely and have positive, tangible performance carry over.

And, the ever present danger of slipping and "pinging off" the board during training, makes it a relatively risky activity.

[Sasquatch]

Relative levels of baseline strength I'd want.

Finger - Infinite
Pull Strength - infinite

Deadlift - 3x2xBW
Squat - 5x1.5BW
Bench Press - 5x1.25xBW
Dips - 5xBW+25%
Pullups - 5xBW+25%
Dragon Flags - 3
Run - 1 mile in 7min
Stairs - 6 flights up and down carrying 100+lbs.

I'm currently pushing my finger and pull strength training as hard as I possibly can, and walking the line for injury.  As much as possible given my time and fingers, I'm climbing what I can.  In the small amount of extra time, I aim to keep the other things up.  At this stage for me, they don't take very much time/effort to keep up.  I think my bench may be low, but it's also probably my lowest priority. 

[abarro81]

A lot of coaches now use weights in their training of elite level athletes. We use a fingerboard to directly target our fingers so using weights to target larger muscles is quite obvious.

Elite level athletes are very different to the masses - they have the core of their training/climbing sussed, and for them it's all about the tinkering.. I think I expressed my initial post badly. I'm not dead set against weights etc, I just think that numerous people get very sucked into tinkering with supplemental stuff and that this distracts them from making sure that the core of what they're doing is right, to the overall detriment that their climbing. It's not like I'm actually sure that my view is right either - there's a genuine question in there. I find it interesting that so many people on here love deadlifts.

Fair enough to all those who like this stuff for general health etc, though I'm not sure what lactate threshold has got to do with it fatdoc? There are better ways to sort out local lactate threshold than weights. Foot on campusing with a metronome is a particularly thrilling one

I'd love to know what the  "JUST TRAIN CLIMBING AND NOTHING ELSE EVER" camp do when their skin is fucked or their forearms are trashed from previous days training or when they're injured or getting too imbalanced from pure climbing training and thus prone to injury......

When I'm injured I train around the injury. I've used weights in the past when I've had finger injuries. However, if my forearms are tired from training then picking up a 150kg weight seems like a shit idea for ensuring optimum recovery for the next day. I'm fairly convinced that generally one good bouldering/hangs session is worth a lot more than one weights session and one bouldering/hangs session with that extra fatigue. If a wieghts session in active rest for you then are you Jakob Schubert?

But, if climbing is the only training for climbing, then where is the next step coming from?

More relevant exercises than deadlifiting?

Extensive amounts of self pleasuring.

If your forearms are fresh enough for that then you didn't train hard enough.

[Sasquatch]

or just do your weights after a training session.  Since it's post session, it doesn't impact your climbing training, and as long as you structure your progression correctly, it shouldn't F-up your recovery. 

[abarro81]

Squat - 5x1.5BW
Bench Press - 5x1.25xBW

Stairs - 6 flights up and down carrying 100+lbs.

I'm still unconvinced that these are in any way relevant to climbing. Running up and down stairs with 30kgs on? To get better at rock climbing? All that's gonna do is make me stress fracture my leg again!


The point you make about time is a key one. If I were a full-timer (despite what dense thinks, I do actually have to work sometimes) I would tinker with more of this shit. But still not running up stairs with weights, or much benching, or squats.

[lovethejugs]

If you wont to get strong for climbing do a rope and wheel work out its the nuts

[Sasquatch]

Squat - 5x1.5BW
Bench Press - 5x1.25xBW

Stairs - 6 flights up and down carrying 100+lbs.

I'm still unconvinced that these are in any way relevant to climbing. Running up and down stairs with 30kgs on? To get better at rock climbing? All that's gonna do is make me stress fracture my leg again!


The point you make about time is a key one. If I were a full-timer (despite what dense thinks, I do actually have to work sometimes) I would tinker with more of this shit. But still not running up stairs with weights, or much benching, or squats.

100% agree that these are no relevent to most people climbing. 

I have a special needs daughter who weighs about 100lbs, and I have to be able to carry her.  Hence the 100lbs on the stairs.  Same basic idea with squats and bench.  These aren't specific to climbing, and I spend about 6-8 weights session per year to maintain this.  The running is just to keep tabs on my overall cardio,

I test each of these sporadically over the coarse of the year and if they're low, then I'll program in a few sessions over 3-4 weeks to get them back to par. 

The other factor is what you're training for - I tend to do loads of development which involves big days of full body workouts where I'd still like to be able to climb.  I take others out and they're so drained after a day of cleaning, they can barely climb at all. 

[abarro81]

100% agree that these are no relevent to most people climbing. 

That's good, thought I'd gone mad for a second there. Obviously if you've got other things which need you to be strong for then it's a bit different!

The other factor is what you're training for

For sure. If I were training for big walling I'm sure I'd need to go more general shit like this to prep for the hauling etc.

I'm impressed you can do 5x1.25xBW bench off the couch, or am I just pathetically weak? I think 1x1.25xBW was better than my best when I lifted weights for a year or so back when I was at school.

[Oldmanmatt]

Alex, how did you enter into climbing?

Was it a gradual build up from a young age or a late teen immersion?

I have a vague hypothesis...

[Sasquatch]

100% agree that these are no relevent to most people climbing. 

That's good, thought I'd gone mad for a second there. Obviously if you've got other things which need you to be strong for then it's a bit different!

The other factor is what you're training for

For sure. If I were training for big walling I'm sure I'd need to go more general shit like this to prep for the hauling etc.

I'm impressed you can do 5x1.25xBW bench off the couch, or am I just pathetically weak? I think 1x1.25xBW was better than my best when I lifted weights for a year or so back when I was at school.

I also think the style of climbing makes a differences.  Steep sport vs. vertical crimping, Trad vs. bouldering, grit vs. lime. 

I'm low on bench right now, and it's also my lowest priority so I'm not going to program it for a bit.  I did a test about 2 weeks back and I'm currently at just above BW (and my BW is currently at about 1.1 of where it should be )

I should hit my DL goal next week, so I'll do a second session of them at the goal, then drop them in favour of something else.  Probably more pulling accessory stuff as I've finally realized that pull strength is now one of my primary weaknesses (aside from the fat ass - which by the way is from way too much beer and sweets over the holidays-not from lifting.  ).   

[Muenchener]

Stairs - 6 flights up and down carrying 100+lbs.

I'm still unconvinced that these are in any way relevant to climbing.

Some crags have longer approaches than Parisella's. I runwalk up lots of flights of stairs with a heavy rucksack on because I want to be able to get to the starts of rock climbs in the Alps without being completely f*cked before I even start climbing.

(Never down with the heavy weight though, my knees are too precious to me to do that)

[Nibile]

@Sasq,
in the poterior chain thread you said that you wouldn't sprint because your legs tend to easily bulk, but what about DL?
They have basically the same pattern, only even more quad dominant, and I've always bulked in the quads more easily that in the hams.
And the running? I know you like and need to be fit, but I remember that when I used to run, many years ago, my legs were the only muscular part of my body - kind of - and I was weak as a kitten on rock and plastic.
Just curious.
P.s. Last sprint session was amazing.

[abarro81]

Alex, how did you enter into climbing?

Was it a gradual build up from a young age or a late teen immersion?

Started at 17, was moderately into it for a ~18 months, then got hooked on my gap year. Mainly trad for the first 4 years, then gradually got more and more into sport climbing, bouldering, training...

in the poterior chain thread you said that you wouldn't sprint because your legs tend to easily bulk, but what about DL?

This is my first reaction when everyone talks about deadlifting. I want sparrow legs, not meaty Arnie ones.

[Nibile]

Given your body type Alex, you could DL for ages before putting on half a kilo, unless training like a horse on steroids and eating as if here were no tomorrow.
We all have the same concern. In the first pics that I have when I started climbing, my legs were twice their size now. With time I shifted some weight from lower to upper body, but having chicken legs and thick torso is not only terribly ugly, it's also a recipe for imbalances and injuries, when lifting.
I was referring to Sasq because of what he'd said before. I think that DL and running can bulk legs as DL if not more.
As for me, I don't deadlift anymore mainly because I haven't got time to go to the gym, and because whenever I go I get sucked in and want to get to 3xBW which would require a massive effort and probably gaining a few kilos in the process.
But - still on the subject of bulking legs - despite the weights finishers and the sprints (once per week) my weight is constant. Muscular quality has gone through the roof though, you should see my biceps peaks and line and the veins in my traps and delts.
Or maybe you shouldn't.
 

[Oldmanmatt]

Alex, how did you enter into climbing?

Was it a gradual build up from a young age or a late teen immersion?

Started at 17, was moderately into it for a ~18 months, then got hooked on my gap year. Mainly trad for the first 4 years, then gradually got more and more into sport climbing, bouldering, training...

in the poterior chain thread you said that you wouldn't sprint because your legs tend to easily bulk, but what about DL?

This is my first reaction when everyone talks about deadlifting. I want sparrow legs, not meaty Arnie ones.

Thanks Alex.
Were you "sporty" or sedentary and where did your dabbling in weights fit in?

I think, I'm thinking of the weights aspect slightly differently to how others here imagine.

I'm talking about using free weights to strengthen and condition muscle trains, not to increase bulk.
So, higher reps and lower weight.
Building, as it were, body tension.

[Nibile]

Higher reps and lower weight is a must-do for mass, unless you're thiniking about 20+ reps with very light weights, to get conditioning, vascularity, etc.
Very low reps (3/5) and max weights do not bulk much. In fact, pure and real strength training is generally overlooked by bodybuilders, and the real power monsters (weightlifters) aren't mass monsters compared to what they lift and compared with BBers.

[abarro81]

Was fairly middling at school in terms of sporty vs sedentary. Went through phases of being into mountain biking, running and a phase of general gym stuff during teenage years before getting into climbing, but also phases where I didn't do that much. Actually, the gym phase lasted a couple of years and crossed over into the time when I started climbing. I was never good at most sports - shit at rugby, football etc. Was ok at running, narrowly missed 40min 10k before injuring myself and stopping doing it. Was weak in the gym compared to the 'sporty' kids (those who would be on all the teams). I guess doing that during formative years may have had benefits which have lasted, though we did stuff with shit form (fucked my wrist up the day after my last GCSE due to benching with wrist at wrong angle, fortuitous timing!).

[Oldmanmatt]

Was fairly middling at school in terms of sporty vs sedentary. Went through phases of being into mountain biking, running and a phase of general gym stuff during teenage years before getting into climbing, but also phases where I didn't do that much. Actually, the gym phase lasted a couple of years and crossed over into the time when I started climbing. I was never good at most sports - shit at rugby, football etc. Was ok at running, narrowly missed 40min 10k before injuring myself and stopping doing it. Was weak in the gym compared to the 'sporty' kids (those who would be on all the teams). I guess doing that during formative years may have had benefits which have lasted, though we did stuff with shit form (fucked my wrist up the day after my last GCSE due to benching with wrist at wrong angle, fortuitous timing!).

Hmmm...

I think (think, don't know) that might be quite a common narrative for climbers.
Had your school placed greater emphasis on Athletics or Gymnastics, over ball sports, things might have been different.
I used to swim (County and TriService) and it was a common theme there too.

Another common lead in to climbing has been hill walking and hiking.

It sounds like your history might have given you and excellent basis (and strong posterior chain) prior to beginning to climb.

Ball sports are the only sport taken seriously by (I'd say) the majority of British schools (if they take any sport seriously).
If you lack "Ball skills" (or "that" kind of coordination) you will be sidelined regardless of your athletic ability.

However.

That is not so true today.

Many younger climbers have little or no sporting background (without wishing to sound like a UKIP spokesman) because the emphasis on sport and PE at school has diminished, as have active leisure pursuits.

They don't have that basis to build on.

So when they discover the nirvana that is climbing, throw themselves into it and proceed to develop asymmetrically, to destruction.

Getting on the board, to develop a posterior chain, is asking for injury if you have none to start with.

The same is, probably, true when returning from a long layoff/injury.
I'd call the board "advanced" training, to be progressed to.

Then, weights allow maintenance of many chains, when other avenues are closed, for whatever reason (skin, finger injury etc).

And Nibs, the problem with the Max Strength type training, is again the risk of injury. Operate near a limit and it's easier to exceed it.
The same becomes true with excessive reps on light weights and you move into an "overuse" situation.

So everything depends on what YOU want to achieve from your training and your history.
Weights don't automatically imply mass increase, neither do they automatically cross over directly to improvement of your climbing.

But, again, I'd hypothesise a sensible course is to take a little of all; think about your imbalances, your weaknesses and leave no joint weak.

(Remember you need those ankles, knees and hips, even if it's just for landing from that highball you just screwed up)....

[Fiend]

Some crags have longer approaches than Parisella's. I runwalk up lots of flights of stairs with a heavy rucksack on because I want to be able to get to the starts of rock climbs in the Alps without being completely f*cked before I even start climbing.

Perhaps more pertinently, barras is probably going to find it a lot easier to crush Realisation if trotting up that hill feels like a piece of piss.

Barras, ignoring weights for a mo, what cardio stuff do you do, and what do you do on your rest days / days off training??

[Nibile]

that highball you just screwed up

You talkin' to me?
I am scared just by getting to the top of my board...
 
What you say about injury risk is correct, for both approaches.
Sadly, once a strength junkie, always a strength junkie.

[abarro81]

Rest days I usually stretch, sometimes a 30min jog. Plus catch up on work, life etc. That usually fills the evening. I try to plan to do long work days on rest days if a long work day is needed.

[jwi]

Slightly  ... but for those who's worried that strength training will make you heavy (w/o energy surplus). Can you snatch 138 kg? Do you weigh less than 58 kg? If not: what's your excuse? 

138 Snatch - World Record Weightlifting (Halil Mutlu)

[mctrials23]

Can you snatch 138 kg? Do you weigh less than 58 kg? If not: what's your excuse? 

Thats pretty heavy for an oompa loompa though. 4'11"!