[douglas]

Does anyone have an idea how endurance or power endurance is related to relative strength at certain grip types?

Say, If I'm strong on crimps and weak on pockets then will I have better crimp endurance?

Or can I train pocket endurance to better-than my crimp endurance even though I'm maximally stronger on crimps?


Thanks! I think I have maximal grip strength clear in my head but can't work this one out.

[shark]

There is a reference in one of the Julian Saunders injury articles saying that training open handed improved endurance and that the subject was worth an article its own right.

I have no idea about the science behind that claim and AFAIK he didn't write an article on the subject. 

[Paul B]

I thought Tom posted some Science in another thread basically saying that it didn't (fairly recently).

[shark]

I thought Tom posted some Science in another thread basically saying that it didn't (fairly recently).

Do you mean this?

If I remember rightly, almost complete capillary occlusion will occur at 30% of max in a muscle, so I suppose you'd have to find out if open handing/crimping caused varying capillary occlusion at the same force applied.

I'd always thought it was better to open hand, but I think it's more a natural deduction that you're drawn to because:

When you're crimping on a route = you're trying hard on the moves = you get pumped
When you're open handing on a route = you're often not at your limit = you're less pumped.

The above is a massive generalisation, but I think across the whole spectrum of routes/route experiences, this would hold true.

So................. I thought, why not test out this on crimp master himself Ed Hamer. He's a monster on crimps, but would he be any good if I forced him to open hand. Well, interestingly, his endurance was actually better on the crimp. Make me have a bit of a re-think.

I tried it out on myself as well and I found I have no difference at all if I crimp or not. I was surprised to say the least.

What Tom seems to be saying (based on his and Ed's performace presumably on the lattice board) is that their current endurance performance isnt dependent on the grip they use (but that might be because they are more used to crimping).

It doesn't disprove the assertion that training open-handed has a better effect at improving endurance than training crimped. 

[douglas]

Thanks. That's interesting. I consider myself stronger on crimps but seem to have better endurance if I climb open, but can't work out why. I've definitely have had better crimp endurance in the past.

[jwi]

If you have greater max strength in crimp position than in the open hand position you will probably have greater capacity for endurance in the crimp position than in the open position; that doesn't mean squat if you are not training endurance in crimp position.

There are, btw, some good reasons to be careful when training endurance in the crimp position. One slip of the foot while crimping hard (happens easy when tired) might lead to permanent injuries.

[Tommy]

Does anyone have an idea how endurance or power endurance is related to relative strength at certain grip types?

Say, If I'm strong on crimps and weak on pockets then will I have better crimp endurance?

Or can I train pocket endurance to better-than my crimp endurance even though I'm maximally stronger on crimps?

It's almost impossible to say conclusively whether one person will experience the same issues as another when training different grip types for endurance. There are general rules that you can go by, but they can always be broken by odd climbing styles/inefficiencies/psychological issues.

Mostly grip types should be fairly specific to their angle when it comes to strength or endurance due to the rule of specificity (I posted previous findings contrary to this as I thought it was interesting and made me think again on the theory) which would suggest that you could never train pocket endurance greater than your crimp endurance if you applied the same training methodolgy to both grip types.

Personally, I'd make a decision on what type of climbing I was aiming for and train predominantly that grip type. You can't go too far wrong hopefully 

In reply to "Say, If I'm strong on crimps and weak on pockets then will I have better crimp endurance?" then yes you would certainly have better crimp endurance as endurance is a function of strnegth. BUT......... this assumes that you'd trained the metabolic pathways for both grip types in exactly the same way, have no imbalanced beliefs in your ability to hold on grip type over another and that you're climbing with exactly the same movement efficiency on both type of hold. If not, then say goodbye to some of the science! 

Edit: for shit grammar and spelling and tireness.

[robertostallioni]

There are general rules that you can go by, but they can always be broken by odd climbing styles/inefficiencies/psychological issues.

I wouldn't take that shit, Shark.

[shark]

Yeah - fuck the rules 

[TobyD]

It's almost impossible to say conclusively whether one person will experience the same issues as another when training different grip types for endurance. There are general rules that you can go by, but they can always be broken by odd climbing styles/inefficiencies/psychological issues.
Mostly grip types should be fairly specific to their angle when it comes to strength or endurance due to the rule of specificity
Personally, I'd make a decision on what type of climbing I was aiming for and train predominantly that grip type. You can't go too far wrong hopefully 

I agree with you wholeheartedly, Tom. There is a lot of truth in 'what you do you become' ; specificity should be a massive component of any training, I would think.

I have not conducted any objectively measureable tests; but from my personal experience, i often feel as though i could squeeze an extra few moves out when pumped senseless if i crimped up; but actually find (if i try the route or link on TR) that I just feel more secure like this since i overcrimp most of the time and that is what i am used to. If i stay open, i perform more or less the same, it just feels wierd as i do it less often 'when it matters'.
I have also read stuff about isometric forearm contraction and small blood vessel occlusion, but would be surprised if that was the only factor affecting relative fatigue in the two grip types?