[ksjs]

With the advent of a 2nd edition of North Wales Bouldering (I can't wait!) and the news that Font grades will be used I have been trying to get into Font grades more. As time goes by I can increasingly translate easily between the 2 scales (nothing special in that, just takes a bit of getting used to). The more I do this and the more I think about the 2 systems I am increasingly confused as to why V grades are used at all.

I would have thought the subject of the 2 systems' merits would have been debated to death but I've done a bit of a search and can't find anything that in-depth. Hence this post - apologies to anyone who's bored already of the subject!

One of the things I particularly like about Font grades is that, having done a bit of sport climbing, the parallels are really useful e.g. the 7th grade represents a certain level of difficulty, the 8th is a step up from that again etc. Obvious I appreciate but still much more elegant, for me, than V grades. Lower down the scale too, Font seems to be better too i.e. you've got Font 3 and the likes while V grades seem particularly blunt around V0. Then there's the V8+ thing and the fact that we're European.

One thing in particular I'm intrigued by is how the same problem merits different grades under the 2 systems - some examples here:
http://magicwoodclimbingholds.blogspot.com/p/bouldering-grades.html
Do people think this really holds true, if so why?

In short I can't really see why V grades were ever used here. What are the advantages of V grades, I can't see any? I understand there's an argument that US problems are more akin to what we have but that seems to make little sense i.e. there's plenty of subtle Fontesque stuff in the UK (grit) whilst there's plenty of short and hard bloc style stuff in Font which Font grades apparently cope with.

If anyone knows how / why we ever adopted V grades I'd be very interested to hear...

[Jaspersharpe]

Oh God, here we go. 

Fiend, if you post on this thread I'm bringing back the McDonalds gags.

In short I can't really see why V grades were ever used here.

Me neither.

LOCK THE THREAD!

[Jaspersharpe]

Oh and have a wade through this amusing thread if you want to get most people's opinions on the subject:

http://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,11260.0.html

 

EDIT - Actually that thread is piss funny. Some Houdini and Sloper gold.

EDIT 2 - AND Fatdoc calling Grimer a wanker by mistake. 

[ducko]

i think its down to personal preference, either way the grade on a problem is just a guideline to show the difficulties of the problem, im not fussed either way,plus you know what americans are like! they speak 'american' apparently instead of 'english' simply by changing a few spellings around, if its not american its not good enough, they most likely just wanted there own grading system being fussy buggers that they are 

[Wood FT]

Yeah, but V grades go into double figures. . .

[ShortRound]

Oh and have a wade through this amusing thread if you want to get most people's opinions on the subject:

http://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,11260.0.html

 

EDIT - Actually that thread is piss funny. Some Houdini and Sloper gold.

EDIT 2 - AND Fatdoc calling Grimer a wanker by mistake. 

Thanks for that thread, it was brilliant.

[Fiend]

I'm not saying anything 

I have given other reasons too, mainly the confusion between the many versions of, say 6a, especially in a guide that uses the British technical grades.

While doing Stanage I did ask one very active member of this forum whether he thought we should switch to Font grades, and he said no, not since the series had been started in V grades, it would be a bad idea to change.

One set of numbers and letters is as arbitrary as the next

I understand completely the 6A/6a confusion rationale.
Also I tend to agree with Dylan. I can, with the aid of a handy conversion table, convert between the two quite easily.

the logic was clear, and it wasn't made in a pub between three people. These are not aimed solely at boulderers and ultimately having two identical-but-different grading scales in one book would be confusing.

To say that one set of numbers is as arbitary as the rest is true in some repsect but the V grade does appear to offer better seperation at the bottom end

It would be very confusing for most climbers to have trad grades with uk tech grades next to font grades that use the same nomenclature but mean something totally different.

can't believe everyone is getting their panties in such a bunch about a choice between two arbitrary sets of numbers. personally i always use a font number but if somebody says v whatever to me it is quite an easy thing to do a rough translation. the idea that grading is such a science that one scale cannot be applied to another rock type is also amazing to me. i think font has about as much similarity to grit as hueco does to grit ie fuck all.

I don't see how it helps to get to grips with a grading system if you have been to the area that it originated from or not.

Considering, Font 5+ in Font is anywhere between simple and impossible that doesn't really help me when looking in a Peak bouldering guide.

With all grading systems, it is pretty easy to tell the order that the grades go in, so once you start climbing the problems, you'll know what grades to aim at.

I'm happy on balance that we used V grades, although it was always a tricky decision.

1) Most people buying the book are not primarily boulderers, I suspect the modal purchaser is an HVS leader who
boulders occasionally. The target audience is crucial... For the same reason Ru was right to use Font grades.
2) Those from a lower grade chuffing background often want UK trad grades for boulder problems as they understand
these grades.
3) The confusion between 6A and 6a is real and more of an issue than that of keen boulderers translating.
4) As a relatively experienced climber I've learnt never to trust Font grades below 6 in Font.  They only make sense if
you climb old unpopular and unpolished problems and take pof use into account; all in the context of a reluctance to
regrade. This is important since in my favourite highball areas on my favorite graded circuits (ranged around AD+) you
can be on an irreversible extreme solo before you know it. The 'Font 5 desperates' legend is overblown but does apply
(some harder graded problems of exactly the same style can be way easier).
5) The idea of a type of grade suiting a particular rock type is idiotic.
6) In my 20 odd years that I've known Sloper be publicly strident on things, we must be right if he says not.

EXACTLY!

[SA Chris]

Yeah, but V grades go into double figures. . .

I've got an amplifier that goes up to 11.

[tomtom]

LOGPILE........LOGPILE.......LOGPILE........LOGPILE........LOGPILE.......LOGPILE........LOGPILE........LOGPILE.......LOGPILE........LOGPILE........LOGPILE.......LOGPILE........LOGPILE........LOGPILE.......LOGPILE........LOGPILE........LOGPILE.......LOGPILE........LOGPILE........LOGPILE.......LOGPILE........LOGPILE........LOGPILE.......LOGPILE........LOGPILE........LOGPILE.......LOGPILE........LOGPILE........LOGPILE.......LOGPILE........LOGPILE........LOGPILE.......LOGPILE........LOGPILE........LOGPILE.......LOGPILE........LOGPILE........LOGPILE.......LOGPILE........LOGPILE........LOGPILE.......LOGPILE........LOGPILE........LOGPILE.......LOGPILE........LOGPILE........LOGPILE.......LOGPILE........LOGPILE........LOGPILE.......LOGPILE........LOGPILE........LOGPILE.......LOGPILE........LOGPILE........LOGPILE.......LOGPILE........LOGPILE........LOGPILE.......LOGPILE........LOGPILE........LOGPILE.......LOGPILE........LOGPILE........LOGPILE.......LOGPILE........LOGPILE........LOGPILE.......LOGPILE........LOGPILE........LOGPILE.......LOGPILE........LOGPILE........LOGPILE.......LOGPILE........LOGPILE........LOGPILE.......LOGPILE........LOGPILE........LOGPILE.......LOGPILE........LOGPILE........LOGPILE.......LOGPILE........LOGPILE........LOGPILE.......LOGPILE........LOGPILE........LOGPILE.......LOGPILE........LOGPILE........LOGPILE.......LOGPILE........LOGPILE........LOGPILE.......LOGPILE........  still reading this shit?

[Stubbs]

Lock and Logpile please!

[fatboySlimfast]

aaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

[Jaspersharpe]

I'm not saying anything 

Is that cos you're stuffing your face?

[account_inactive]

That article from Simon Young made no sense at all

[iwasmexican]

That article from Simon Young made no sense at all

its like someone copy pasted every other sentence from three different articles...

[ksjs]

Oh and have a wade through this amusing thread if you want to get most people's opinions on the subject

Cheers for that - have had a quick look and will have a proper read but it doesn't look like it really addresses the points I mentioned.

Was hoping for something a bit more constructive / instructive but I've obviously fallen foul of the UKB posting standards committee so will allow this to die a quiet death.

[tomtom]

Forgive us ksjs, it's just been done to death before! Hence the log pile comments...

Fonts better as it has more smaller increments and some folk thing grades from Font translate better to Uk bouldering (ESP Grit)  rather than V grades from Hueco Tanks.

[fatdoc]

Apart from norton puntering me whilst hungover I got all my neg karma over this, and pleas no more.... Yes I had issues

Please read the tomes on here.

[ksjs]

Forgive us ksjs, it's just been done to death before! Hence the log pile comments...

Fonts better as it has more smaller increments and some folk thing grades from Font translate better to Uk bouldering (ESP Grit)  rather than V grades from Hueco Tanks.

You're forgiven  I do have a pet hate of people asking for stuff on forums without bothering to use search. I did (honest guv!) but didn't turn up anything obvious (or perhaps didn't look closely enough). Anyway, sorry for resurrecting this, really didn't want people to think "Not again!" Will read linked thread and try harder with my search efforts...

[fatdoc]

 

Thanks

[Oldmanmatt]

Don't mention the war!

But, you started it...

No I didn't, you did!

You invaded Poland (and mentioned V grades)!

Ladies and Gentlemen, please welcome; the elephant in the room...

[tomtom]

Is Jesus.

[Offwidth]

Thanks Fiend for saying so much without saying anything. I stand by everything I said pro V grade for the BMC peak grit guides in that quote from me (especially the Sloper bit).

I've been busy today checking and  part reverse translating from V grades to font at Caley for the YMC guide (weird conditions I expected to be just walking round sense checking in the damp but found a lot was dry and even got a mini blizzard and was able to climb minutes afterwards)

I sincerely apologise for anyone whose sensibilities are hurt by this and I still think any pure bouldering guide should be using font grades. I also agree the thread should be locked...done to death.

[yankcranker]

i think its down to personal preference, either way the grade on a problem is just a guideline to show the difficulties of the problem, im not fussed either way,plus you know what americans are like! they speak 'american' apparently instead of 'english' simply by changing a few spellings around, if its not american its not good enough, they most likely just wanted there own grading system being fussy buggers that they are 

youre an idiot. i suggest you do a little research into how the vermin ratings came about - then show some fucking respect. sherman is a living legend, how dare you call v ratings "fussy" when the french faggot font system has several levels for each number? lol, get real son

also, i dont think anyone from the states gives a fuck what or how the UK guys rate boulder problems - its not like we asked you to adopt the V system....several old school UK climbers likely preferred it, and so adopted it to their home crags. the system originated in hueco tanks in the 80s..didnt moffatt, moon, etc spend months and months camped out there?

and for the record....never in my fucking life have i ever heard someone call our language "speaking american". not sure if youre aware, we have huge immigration issues here, and SPEAK ENGLISH is a very commonly used phrase.


if it wasnt for us, you wouldnt be dynoing for holds or using chalk for that matter.

[cheque]

also, i dont think anyone from the states gives a fuck what or how the UK guys rate boulder problems

It seems that you do.

[yankcranker]

 

[slackline]

and for the record....never in my fucking life have i ever heard someone call our language "speaking american". not sure if youre aware, we have huge immigration issues here, and SPEAK ENGLISH is a very commonly used phrase.

Might be worth expanding your horizons....Comparison of American and British English

[yankcranker]

  no wonder you have 14k posts, youre not even posting relevant shit.

yep, 200+ years and a few thousand miles can certainly create different ways of communicating the same ideas

[slackline]

yep, 200+ years and a few thousand miles can certainly create different ways of communicating the same ideas

And some of those include being civil. 

[yankcranker]

 

also beside the point

[andy_e]

we have huge immigration issues here, and SPEAK ENGLISH is a very commonly used phrase.

Is this your attitude or are you just highlighting the fact?

[slackline]

also beside the point

As you spend time in this forum you'll see that threads drift around a bit.

But if you're a stickler for keeping threads on topic I don't see why you bothered with the third paragraph of your first post in this thread, by your own reasoning its beside the point.

[yankcranker]

we have huge immigration issues here, and SPEAK ENGLISH is a very commonly used phrase.

Is this your attitude or are you just highlighting the fact?

just pointing it out, mexicans look a lot more like native americans than guys like me do. (UK blood on both sides)

slackline - im talking shit bro. lets go offtopic. bored + stoned + got pounded by 1/2 ft of snow yesterday

american english --> both funnier and more fun, due largely in part to african americans...who have mastered it through their butchery

[clgladiator]

...got pounded by 1/2 ft of snow yesterday....

you were raped by an abnormally small snow man?

[Fiend]

Zero to -16 in one afternoon, is that a record??

[fried]

Better than a Tourette's 3-9 on gin.

[andyd]

Zero to -16 in one afternoon, is that a record??

In case it isn't, get amongst it everyone.

[ducko]

i think its down to personal preference, either way the grade on a problem is just a guideline to show the difficulties of the problem, im not fussed either way,plus you know what americans are like! they speak 'american' apparently instead of 'english' simply by changing a few spellings around, if its not american its not good enough, they most likely just wanted there own grading system being fussy buggers that they are 

youre an idiot. i suggest you do a little research into how the vermin ratings came about - then show some fucking respect. sherman is a living legend, how dare you call v ratings "fussy" when the french faggot font system has several levels for each number? lol, get real son

also, i dont think anyone from the states gives a fuck what or how the UK guys rate boulder problems - its not like we asked you to adopt the V system....several old school UK climbers likely preferred it, and so adopted it to their home crags. the system originated in hueco tanks in the 80s..didnt moffatt, moon, etc spend months and months camped out there?

and for the record....never in my fucking life have i ever heard someone call our language "speaking american". not sure if youre aware, we have huge immigration issues here, and SPEAK ENGLISH is a very commonly used phrase.


if it wasnt for us, you wouldnt be dynoing for holds or using chalk for that matter.

Pipe down captain America, typical gob shite yank sperm bank

[Oldmanmatt]

and for the record....never in my fucking life have i ever heard someone call our language "speaking american". not sure if youre aware, we have huge immigration issues here, and SPEAK ENGLISH is a very commonly used phrase.

Yes...


Started in about 1492, iirc...