[douglas]

Strong fingers are the pure distillation of the sport of climbing. Without finger strength we'd just all be bad gymnasts.

And more recently I've been thinking that the reason I can't do the move is because I just can't squeeze or crimp hard enough and so therefore I need to get stronger fingers.

I know how to do this, getting strong is easy. But getting strong without getting injured is more difficult and this is what I'd like to do. So, what are your top tips that may help me become a better climber, without getting injured?

The beastmaker website recommends 'serious beastmakerification' to go from 8A to 8B+ in 3 years. How can I do this and what is 'serious beastmakerification'?

Thank you.

[Paul B]

[Johnny Brown]

So, what are your top tips that may help me become a better climber

I thought you wanted stronger fingers?

[Ru]

Either a) be lucky, or b) learn how to manage injuries.

Plus eat well, sleep well, don't have a stressful job/partner/pet etc etc.

[nodder]

'serious beastmakerification'

First rule of beastmakerification...

[Doylo]

'serious beastmakerification'

Rohypnol in a animal sanctuary

[mendis]

Hang from insanely bad holds for as long as you can using as little number fingers as you can. Easy.

[jwi]

Do climbs with bad and widely spaced holds

[ducko]

Campus board seems to work for me personally, also when your fingers don't feel right lay off and rest or go open hand some shizzle

[Nibile]

if he's afraid of golfer's elbow he'll better avoid campusing.
I'd say deadhangs and climbing on a moderately overhanging wall with small holds.
on the fingerboard I use monos and two fingers (front, middle and back2 as The Verb states), on the board I want to use holds that engage all four fingers, otherwise to me it's too dangerous, especially if you dyno to holds, because however you get them then you don't want to let go.

[Nibile]

oh and one last advice, I hope you don't find me (too much) presumptuous.
set your own targets and don't consider other ones' achievements:
going from 8a to 8b+ worked for them but could not transfer to everyone, and I am the living proof.
finally, about the Beastmakerification: to me it means counting your session's deadhanging times in double digit minutes; for weeks, for months, for years.

[Ruarl]

The best piece of advice I ever heard about avoiding injuries is to listen to your body. It's also the hardest to implement. Everyone has to learn their own internal messages for themselves. A training log can be handy here, if you can keep to it. And remember to record something of how you felt about your sessions as well as what you did, if you hope to uncover the subtle signals which tell you to train or not to train.

[douglas]

Thank you for the helpful replys, especially Ru, Nibile and Ruarl.

I keep a training diary and record what I do and how I feel but I very rarely find it helpful in prevent injuries. This would be difficult to test though. Nibile, what does 'count your session's deadhanging times in double digit minutes' mean? I don't quite understand that part..

[Nibile]

if I'm not going for max power I do 6 sets of 10 seconds hangs on various holds. so, each hold gets at least 1 minute of pure deadhanging time.
I generally do:
20°, big rung, 35°, 45° (less than 10 secons for each hang), slopey pockets, back two big, back two medium, index mono small (less than 10 secons for each hang), middle mono, middle two small, back three small rung, front three small rung. I do them in this sequence, otherwise doing 6 sets straight on the same hold skin becomes a bit of an issue to me. this way you also get longer rests between sets on the same hold so you can push more.
chosing many different holds and prehensions, so that you get more than 10 minutes of deadhanging time, to me is a good session.
it seems little but for me it's not. I climb a lot on my board right now, and it's intense, so on "easy" days I do this kind of fingerboarding session, to maintain a decent level.
if I want to push things I do one armed assisted (or not) dead hangs.
hope this helps.

[douglas]

if I'm not going for max power I do 6 sets of 10 seconds hangs on various holds. so, each hold gets at least 1 minute of pure deadhanging time.
I generally do:
20°, big rung, 35°, 45° (less than 10 secons for each hang), slopey pockets, back two big, back two medium, index mono small (less than 10 secons for each hang), middle mono, middle two small, back three small rung, front three small rung. I do them in this sequence, otherwise doing 6 sets straight on the same hold skin becomes a bit of an issue to me. this way you also get longer rests between sets on the same hold so you can push more.
chosing many different holds and prehensions, so that you get more than 10 minutes of deadhanging time, to me is a good session.
it seems little but for me it's not. I climb a lot on my board right now, and it's intense, so on "easy" days I do this kind of fingerboarding session, to maintain a decent level.
if I want to push things I do one armed assisted (or not) dead hangs.
hope this helps.

Okay, that makes good sense. Thanks!

[r-man]

10 sec is quite a long time for hangs - you said this is not for maximal power though?

Be interested to know how long other people hang for. Is there any science to support hang times?

I usually aim for sets of 6 reps: 6 sec hangs with 4 sec rests on any given hold combination - if the last two reps are desperate I feel like it's a good level of intensity.

[clm]

Try improving your footwork.

[douglas]

Try improving your footwork.

I've been trying that since I began climbing.

[moose]

All sounds like too much hard work to me.  My plan is to invoke the SCIENCE of homeopathy: I'm going to achieve morphic resonance with Jonh Gaskins by shaving some hairs off.   Let the crushin' begin...

[webbo]

10 sec is quite a long time for hangs - you said this is not for maximal power though?

Be interested to know how long other people hang for. Is there any science to support hang times?

I usually aim for sets of 6 reps: 6 sec hangs with 4 sec rests on any given hold combination - if the last two reps are desperate I feel like it's a good level of intensity.

Is'nt that doing repeaters rather than max hangs. From the moon site (Rich Simpson) and Steve Mac they reckon 6 secs followed by 1 min rest for max hangs.
I tend to do 3 sets of 6 secs with one rest between each on various holds the increase one rep to 8 secs then 2 then 3. when I can do 3 at secs add some weight.
However I'm not very good at sustaining this for long and generally only tend to it when I can't climb.

[Seb]

All sounds like too much hard work to me.  My plan is to invoke the SCIENCE of homeopathy: I'm going to achieve morphic resonance with Jonh Gaskins by shaving some hairs off.   Let the crushin' begin...

Doesnt work, ive got no hair and im still shit.

[douglas]

Okay so I've been thinking a bit about training today and I've come up with a supplemental fingerboard session to target a certain grip type that I think I'm weak at. I plan to do this for a 4 week block when I ramp up the training in the new year. Subsequent 4 week blocks will target another perceived grip weakness.

1 - 2 sessions a week. With other climbing.

One arm assisted hangs.
Right hand: 7s on, 3s rest, 7s on, 3s rest, 7s on, 3s rest.
Left hand: same
2 minutes rest.
6 - 8 sets.

For 6 sets this would give 2.06 mins total hang time on each arm for a workout that is 15 minutes. Not including warming up.

This is a mix between repeaters (which I think are an anaerobic endurance exercise) and max hangs (recruitment). Am I right in thinking that this should lie in the strength / hypertrophy regime? And result in bigger and stronger forearms?

Cheers!

[mark s]

fingers as strong as these?

[SA Chris]

I'd like a look as strong as that.

[haz]

Okay so I've been thinking a bit about training today and I've come up with a supplemental fingerboard session to target a certain grip type that I think I'm weak at. I plan to do this for a 4 week block when I ramp up the training in the new year. Subsequent 4 week blocks will target another perceived grip weakness.

1 - 2 sessions a week. With other climbing.

One arm assisted hangs.
Right hand: 7s on, 3s rest, 7s on, 3s rest, 7s on, 3s rest.
Left hand: same
2 minutes rest.
6 - 8 sets.

For 6 sets this would give 2.06 mins total hang time on each arm for a workout that is 15 minutes. Not including warming up.

This is a mix between repeaters (which I think are an anaerobic endurance exercise) and max hangs (recruitment). Am I right in thinking that this should lie in the strength / hypertrophy regime? And result in bigger and stronger forearms?

Cheers!

How is assisted hangs getting on? I find this method a little aukward as I don't really know how much weight I'm taking off, and find the hanging position a bit squew whiff. I accept that it could take a bit of getting used to.
I've been experimenting with using a rucksack with varying amount of weights, to train max grip strength for both arms at once. Plan to progressivly increase weight. Does anyone have an opinion on this?

[shark]

How is assisted hangs getting on? I find this method a little aukward as I don't really know how much weight I'm taking off, and find the hanging position a bit squew whiff. I accept that it could take a bit of getting used to.
I've been experimenting with using a rucksack with varying amount of weights, to train max grip strength for both arms at once. Plan to progressivly increase weight. Does anyone have an opinion on this?

I think one arm work weight off using a pulley, weights and a foot sling is far better than a weighted rucsac.

If doing 2 armed work try experimenting with finger combos to get combinations that you can just hold for the optimum times. For example I do hangs or encores alternating all 4 fingers one hand then back 2 the other then swap around. You could then do a set with all 4 and front 2 then all 4 and mid 2 to ensure all flexors are worked.

If you need to add weights just slip a couple small free weights into your pockets. If you have to go much heavier consider switching to one arm or changing your combos. At the very least hang weights of your harness rather than use a rucsac - it's not a good look.

[Nibile]

yes, and the rucksack makes your shoulders ache if you work with big loads. a harness is far a better option but be sure to hang the weights at the back, so with the harness loop at the back. this way you don't damage your spine. with the weights in front your hips get pulled down and forward, increasing the rotation and putting your lower back at risk.

[Fultonius]

How is assisted hangs getting on? I find this method a little aukward as I don't really know how much weight I'm taking off, and find the hanging position a bit squew whiff.

I've found fulmars to be a lot more whiffy, that oily stomach acid never comes off your clothes. I generally try to think more like a guillemot when deadhanging, but I do always end up huffin and puffin.

 

[haz]

... and what would be the optimum times for maximum grip strength progressions would you say? A similar layout to the one suggested by Douglas?

Cheers for the advice.

[douglas]

Hi,

How many sessions a week and what length is best for forearm strength? I know that PE and stamina training generally yields better results by increasing the volume but how different is absolute finger strength training? Am I right in thinking that to get strong you need to ditch the stamina training as that adds extra training load that needs to be recovered from but isn't beneficial to getting strong therefore dilutes strength training.

Thanks. I need some advice from strong boys because I'm weak (can't hang one handed).

[Nibile]

Sorry Douglas, what's your question about? Maximum fingers strength or maximum forearms power?
Anyway I can't think about general guidelines, give us more details, "strong" and "weak" can mean very different things to different people.
Adam Ondra claims to be weak, for example.

[douglas]

Sorry Nibile, that was my rushed writing.

I think I have a good handle on power training. My body responds well to just a couple of intense sessions a week and by unstructured bouldering I think I recruit the fibres and build contact strength quite well. PE and stamina training is also clear in my mind. I find if I train that 5 or 6 times a week it gets better.

What I'm more concerned with is gaining absolute finger strength: bigger muscle fibres. I have pretty small forearms, that coupled with being quite tall (and thus heavy) means that I have poor power to weight ratio. Gym rats say train the same muscle group after a day or two rest.

It's not obvious for me what sort of training I need to do to gain absolute strength: stronger finger muscles (recruitment and size).

So my question is how many sessions do you think is best for getting stronger fingers? I know this depends on lots of factors.

I have bouldered a few 7Cs so I guess I'm looking for advice from people climbing in the 8s? i.e you! But like you say strong or weak is relative and there are strong climbers I could learn from who climb 7B and weak climbers I couldn't learn from who climb in the 8s (Ondra!).

Thanks!

[Nibile]

I think that to target max finger strength, the key is to perform at your limit, whichever the exercise.
I am no expert, but I wouldn't try to address a specific strength development way (neural recruitment, fibers recruitment, hypertrphy, and so on - PLEASE FORGIVE ANY INCORRECT TERMS OR ERRORS), I'd do a little (lot) of everything:
two handed deadhangs with added weight;
one handed deadhangs with some weight off (pulleys, elastics, scale, chair, partner...);
system training;
campusing and footless bouldering maybe also, for contact strength.
I've always fingerboarded a lot in the past, so I think that's the easiest way and the most tailored. also if you can't train 24/7.
following recent topics about volume, intensity and the likes, I'd go for a double session (morning-evening) of low volume, max intensity deadhangs, once or maybe twice a week, depending on how you feel.
if you want to mix it up you can train many different prehensions, otherwise I'd go for the classic four fingers halfcrimp, front3, back3.
I don't think there is a magic formula, only a lot of patience, dedication, chalk and skin.
I hope this helps, there are many others far more prepared (and strong) than I am on the subject, who could provide also some science.
in any case stick at it!!!

ps. some tests are essential to measure progresses. the smallest hold you can hang two armed and one armed; the max added weight on a x mm hold (that you will keep as reference hold); hang times, and so on.

[Sasquatch]

Sorry Nibile, that was my rushed writing.

I think I have a good handle on power training. My body responds well to just a couple of intense sessions a week and by unstructured bouldering I think I recruit the fibres and build contact strength quite well. PE and stamina training is also clear in my mind. I find if I train that 5 or 6 times a week it gets better.

What I'm more concerned with is gaining absolute finger strength: bigger muscle fibres. I have pretty small forearms, that coupled with being quite tall (and thus heavy) means that I have poor power to weight ratio. Gym rats say train the same muscle group after a day or two rest.

It's not obvious for me what sort of training I need to do to gain absolute strength: stronger finger muscles (recruitment and size).

So my question is how many sessions do you think is best for getting stronger fingers? I know this depends on lots of factors.

I have bouldered a few 7Cs so I guess I'm looking for advice from people climbing in the 8s? i.e you! But like you say strong or weak is relative and there are strong climbers I could learn from who climb 7B and weak climbers I couldn't learn from who climb in the 8s (Ondra!).

Thanks!

I think I get where you're coming from, but need a clearer picture of goals.  There's a difference in training to climb 8a vs. getting stronger fingers.  I know they go together, but distiguishing between the two goals helps to formulate the training.

Are you looking for exercises to do that make you stronger? or are you looking to train?  There is a distinct difference.   

Say your overall goal is to climb 8a,  a good sub-goal would be to develop your finger strength to be able to un-assisted 1-arm hang the middle lower crimp on the BM2000 (IMO-if you can do this and not climb 8a, then finger strength is probably not your weakness).  Make the goal very distinct and measurable. 

The first step then is to self-assess..  How much assistance do you need to hang it?  The best way to do this is with a pully, and not using the other arm at all.  Then set up a varied training program with periodic testing to check your training.  If you're getting closer the training is working.  If you're not, then rethink/revamp your training.

As far as exercises go,  I think Nibs nailed it.  Lots of different things that work the system in different ways.



btw- The reason I'm nitpicky about goals and sself-assessment is that I see loads of young kids come into the gym and talk about needing stronger fingers after having their feet peel off over and over.  They never even think about needing other types of strength....

[Sasquatch]

Question for Nibs and other training junkies   

I know there are different muscles that cause each joint of the finger to contract.  Do you think it better to train first joint hangs first, then move onto second joint (slopers, deeper pockets, etc.)?  or the other way around? 

My initial thoughts are that you are trying to strengthen each, so if you do second joint holds first, then the first joint will be fatigued when you start the first joint hangs.  I'm sure I'm overthinking this.

Never experimented with it firsthand and have never seen anyone comment on it, but was thinking about trying to incorporate the idea into how I structure my hangboard sessions.  I'll be starting a new training cycle in about 2 weeks and am revsinig my hangboard workout.

[Nibile]

the difference between training for climbing x grade and for strong fingers was in my mind also, but got forgotten while writing.
goal assessment is as crucial as the training itself.
good call Sasquatch.

[Nibile]

when fingerboarding I do the hangs in a cycle, passing from one prehension to the other and repeating the cycle for x sets.
compared to doing x sets on the same hold and then move to another, I find the cycle allows longer rests between same hangs, making for higher intensity and also less skin related issues.
in the cycle, I simply try to do the hardest hangs before the easier ones, regardless of how many fingers or joints used.
for instance, it's harder for me to hang the shallow pockets front2 than it's to hang the monos index or middle finger. so the shallow pockets come first.

[Sasquatch]

I guess that does make sense conceptually.  Do you find you make greater strength gains by doing that?

Generally speaking it seems like there is a place for both.  I think of repeaters as strength training in a gym, eg. doing 4 reps at 85% of max, would be likedoing 4x7on/3off, with max being total weight (body +/- other weight).   My thought for moving to max strength building was to try to structure the work more like a weight training program.  1 day do 6 sets of 3 hangs 5sec on/3sec off with a minute rest per prehension, but probably only Mono Index, Mono Middle, Back2, Sloper.  The other day do 3 sets of 6 hangs, same times and prehensions. 

On a different note.  In both sets, I find doing a pullup each rep rather than just hanging or encores is much more effective at engaging the fingers in a more realistic way.  As you pull-up you are increasing the force on the fingers, and as you go back down you are lowering the force.  When I changed this, it seemed to really help the overall muscle engagement.

[tomtom]

I found it was the act of going up and down each pullup that hurts my elbows. If I deadhang - or do encores (or partial encores) they're much happier.. I can see why the moving part is really important - so you transfer your weight differently accross the crimp/hold as you move but it dont half hurt my bows..

[Sasquatch]

I found it was the act of going up and down each pullup that hurts my elbows. If I deadhang - or do encores (or partial encores) they're much happier.. I can see why the moving part is really important - so you transfer your weight differently accross the crimp/hold as you move but it dont half hurt my bows..

Agreed about the elbows, but I've found doing the rotating weight thingyhttp://www.drjuliansaunders.com/resources/feature_articles/dodgy_elbows/has made my elbows way less dodgy so I can do these now.  I also don't tend to go to full lock, as that's when I notice most. 

[tomtom]

Yeah - I tend to just to 90 deg and full hang.. sometimes I even use a chair to get up into the 90 deg position..

[Sasquatch]

Agreed about the elbows, but I've found doing the rotating weight thingy http://www.drjuliansaunders.com/resources/feature_articles/dodgy_elbows/ has made my elbows way less dodgy so I can do these now.  I also don't tend to go to full lock, as that's when I notice most.

  
I got so caught up in the white hot finger's that I forgot the Golfer's part of the question.

The link above has good exercises which done on a regular basis should rid yourself of golfer's and if you make it a consistant part of your training, should keep it gone.  I had Golfer's elbow issues on and off for 4-5 years, about 18 months ago started doing these, and haven't had a single issue no matter how hard I've trained. 

[highrepute]

Agreed about the elbows, but I've found doing the rotating weight thingy http://www.drjuliansaunders.com/resources/feature_articles/dodgy_elbows/ has made my elbows way less dodgy so I can do these now.  I also don't tend to go to full lock, as that's when I notice most.

  
I got so caught up in the white hot finger's that I forgot the Golfer's part of the question.

The link above has good exercises which done on a regular basis should rid yourself of golfer's and if you make it a consistant part of your training, should keep it gone.  I had Golfer's elbow issues on and off for 4-5 years, about 18 months ago started doing these, and haven't had a single issue no matter how hard I've trained.

on a similar vein... I do something similar exercise using one of these theraband dildo things. Basically I had a problem with golfers elbow and doing this exercise seemed to fix it. If I've been overdoing it I can sometimes feel my elbows starting to complain so I just do some the exercises for a couple of days, seems to do the trick. There's a similar one that helps with Tennis elbow if you're a sufferer. The key here is listening to your body so that you know when to ease off or throw in some other exercises. I'm pretty sure doing loads of upper-body conditioning can help prevent injury, Magnus Mibtoe also seems to think so http://rockclimbinguk.co.uk/magnus-midtbo-on-climbing-training/

[Nibile]

I used to do pull ups on the fingerboard, both with 2 arms and added weight and one arm with bodyweight or assistance.
got many injuries, also very bad ones.
I prefer to train the pull on the board or system wall.

[Sasquatch]

I used to do pull ups on the fingerboard, both with 2 arms and added weight and one arm with bodyweight or assistance.
got many injuries, also very bad ones.
I prefer to train the pull on the board or system wall.

I totally agree.  I'm not doing the pull-ups to work my pull strangth (i do campusing for that).  I do it for my fingers. 

I noticed when I first started doing the FB workouts, that I could hold holds well, but got weak as I transitioned around on the hold.  Doing pullups during my repeaters seemed to make this better.  One FB workout would end up being around 12 sets of 5-6 Pullups (60-70 total), which isn't that many (relatively) so not really a pulling workout.  plus on many holds I am reducing weight making the pullup even easier.   

[Nibile]

sorry I wasn't perfectly clear, I wanted to say that I prefer doing just dead hangs for finger strength, because training it also with pull ups has led to some injuries and back problems in the past.

[douglas]

Thanks Nibile and Sasquatch for the advice. There is a lot to digest there.

Just to reassure you both, I perceive grip strength to be quite a weak link in my climbing. So that's why I'm psyched to improve it. But I'm aware of the fact that it itself won't help me climb harder.

The way I have been monitoring progress is to stand on some scales and pull on an edge with a single finger while looking at the scales to see the weight lifted. I've tried the BM edge and am nowhere near. But I've never tried it with a pulley. However I can't hand edges twice the size one armed. I can't hand the final drilled pocket on Rock Atrocity one handed and that's basically a jug!

Do you see fingerboard work essential for real gains in climbing or would you just go bouldering if you could? For me I just see bouldering as too dilute. Specific grip types are not worked consistently enough for real gains?

[Sasquatch]

sorry I wasn't perfectly clear, I wanted to say that I prefer doing just dead hangs for finger strength, because training it also with pull ups has led to some injuries and back problems in the past.

Fair enough.  I had actually had elbow problems from the pullups prior to the Elbow tendonitis wrist thingy.  Now I don't seemt to have any problems, though.  I also haven't been doing them that long though....

[Sasquatch]

The way I have been monitoring progress is to stand on some scales and pull on an edge with a single finger while looking at the scales to see the weight lifted. I've tried the BM edge and am nowhere near. But I've never tried it with a pulley. However I can't hand edges twice the size one armed. I can't hand the final drilled pocket on Rock Atrocity one handed and that's basically a jug!

Do you see fingerboard work essential for real gains in climbing or would you just go bouldering if you could? For me I just see bouldering as too dilute. Specific grip types are not worked consistently enough for real gains?

A couple of thoughts:
1: Are you pulling and looking at the scale or lifting your feet while looking at the scale.  One will measure pull strength while the other would measure hanging strength.  Slightly different and something to be aware of as you progress. (no right or wrong, just want to maintain consistency)

2: Often times the inability to hang one armed is a shoulder girdle strength issue which can be trained.  especially if you can't hang a jug.....

3: If I had no time or family commitments and lived someplace where I could climb outside on a wide variety of projects at the right difficulty, I wouldn't train on a FB at all.  However, I live in Alaska and have a wife and three kids, so FB it is.  Also, I've always found my fingers to be at their strongest after extended periods of outside bouldering.  I think the reason is simply motivation.  I will almost always try harder outside.

[shark]

[quote author=Sasquatch link=topic=19141.msg356671#msg356671
2: Often times the inability to hang one armed is a shoulder girdle strength issue which can be trained.  especially if you can't hang a jug.....
[/quote]

What would you do (or have you done) to train this?

[Sasquatch]

[quote author=Sasquatch link=topic=19141.msg356671#msg356671
2: Often times the inability to hang one armed is a shoulder girdle strength issue which can be trained.  especially if you can't hang a jug.....

What would you do (or have you done) to train this?
[/quote]

The best I've found is to do 1-arm assisted hangs.  I use a pully and do 1-arm hangs on decent holds, but try to stay square to the board.  At first I was doing it off a bar while hanging off 1-arm trying to slowly and in control turn my body each way(think twisting in the wind )

[Clart]

...basically negative wrist curls, in case it wasn't obvious.

[shark]

[quote author=Sasquatch link=topic=19141.msg356709#msg356709
The best I've found is to do 1-arm assisted hangs.  I use a pully and do 1-arm hangs on decent holds, but try to stay square to the board.  At first I was doing it off a bar while hanging off 1-arm trying to slowly and in control turn my body each way(think twisting in the wind )
[/quote]

Thanks. I'll give it a go.

[Sasquatch]

 In my experience, At first I could barely hang one arm off a bar without twisting.  once I learned to control that twist, I was able to hang off the edges and slopers much better. The gains came very rapidly too, which was nice.

[douglas]

Thanks for that Sasquatch. I was lifting my feet so hopefully measuring grip strength rather than pull strength. Regarding my shoulders I don't think they are the weak link. I read on here that you can eliminate them by hanging one handed and holding your opposite bicep with your free arm. And I still can't hang one handed. One arm locks on a bar and slowly lowering on one arm I can do okay.

Going back to a previous point that someone mentioned... Is there a good reason why one shouldn't try to isolate certain types of muscle development in the forearms (eg hypertrophy, recruitment, etc) ? I think it was Nible who said this.

Thanks again all!