[csurfleet]

A while back I mentioned in the discussions on the Klimb software that I was looking at developing a training website. Since then everything has gone quiet (sorry!) as I've been working long hrs, so not only have I been getting fat, I haven't been doing enough on this project. I'm back on it now though and I've got a load of the back-end code completed. I now have two requests for the good visitors to this parish though:

1. I'm after some volunteers to use the system as it's being developed. You need to be someone who trains rather than just climbs, but I'm not too bothered if you currently have a proper structure or not. You make do with a buggy, ugly site for a few months and give me feedback - I give you the chance to make the site exactly what you'd want, and free access forever.

2. Grades. I've been thinking a whole lot about this thorny issue and I can't make up my mind. I want the site to be of use to people all over the planet which obviously means supporting plenty of grading systems. As I see it there are two options for how I handle them:
- All grading systems are held seperately. Pros: no dodgy conversions between grades. Cons: you won't be able to compare your trad grade across grade system boundaries, so if you are climbing HVS 5a in England then do a trad 6b in Chorro it won't show up in the same graphs or whatever.
- OR I have some kind of grade conversion table. You choose your display grade preference and anything entered in another grade type will be converted for you. This will make the system easy to use but may end up with some pretty dodgy conversions if you switch grade preferences!

Any feedback would be great. I'm hoping to have a barebones site for volunteers to enter fingerboard workouts onto in the next 3-4 weeks.

(UKB admins - I'll be coming to you for an advertising slot when its all done!)

[schloosh]

I'd be up for helping out and using the site Chris.
Just let me know.

[account_inactive]

+1

[Dr T]

I'll help out too...

[slackline]

I'll help out where possible.

[corpy]

Im up for it

[esox]

Me too!

[sam820]

I'll get involved!

[Nibile]

count me in.

[Dr T]

count me in.

If anyone's going to test it to it's limits and put the rest of us to shame it's Nibs!

[heelhookofglory]

I'm happy to help out.

I'm a designer by trade so happy to help with front-end, too. Can sort you some quality hosting etc., if need be, as well. Email me.

[ashleyscott]

Im up for helping, I can cover the lower end of the grade scale. lead upto 6b, boulder upto F6c.

[AlistairB]

I'd love to help out however I can. I have a recreational interest in web development (small scale php/mySQL stuff and also front-end design) and I'm going to be training my ass off over the next 12 months in an attempt to get into the 8s for sport next summer.

[csurfleet]

Wow, thanks for the support guys! I'll get some PM's out to you in the next couple of weeks, I'll probably just replicate your usernames from here and let you know when we're good to go

Steve, I'll definitely be in touch about some site design stuff as that is where my skills are lacking!

(Weekend update, I've finished off the back-end login code, and re-decorated the bathroom  )

[andybfreeman]

If it's not too late count me in!

[Fatboy]

Defo up for being a guinea-pig, psyche indeed!!
I would only be using it from a bouldering point of view, as I never trad it up.

[csurfleet]

Wicked thanks guys. I reckon I need about 8 people, which will be a group big enough to get a range of usages and a nice chunk of data to do comparisons on, without becoming unmanageable from a development perspective. I'll pick people out based on a combination of "I've noticed you on here geeking out about training lots", "total randomness" and "your name is nibs".

[ghisino]

is it too late to join?

wannabe french instructor, so very interested in anything that could help me gain experience about how others respond to training, as well as in training supports.
(actually got the confirmation that i'm accepted in the instruction/training/apprentship process today)

in the 7's both sport and boulder, max font 7b+ f8a

[Serpico]

- OR I have some kind of grade conversion table. You choose your display grade preference and anything entered in another grade type will be converted for you. This will make the system easy to use but may end up with some pretty dodgy conversions if you switch grade preferences!

This is the way to go, and the grade conversions work out pretty reliably with all but the UK system. The UK system is useless as a definitive measure of physical difficulty, so I'd leave it out altogether of a training diary, unfortunately I inherited it with Klimb and had to make it fit as best possible.
I'd put a bit of thought into what you're going to use as your internal base grade, as this will save you a lot of hassle further down the line, Klimb's is based on the YDS system - 13.25 = 13b = 8a etc...
I'd be interested in seeing what you come up with.

[csurfleet]

I'd put a bit of thought into what you're going to use as your internal base grade, as this will save you a lot of hassle further down the line, Klimb's is based on the YDS system - 13.25 = 13b = 8a etc...
I'd be interested in seeing what you come up with.

Yeah I've been leaning towards just getting rid of the UK trad grade bit - or rather not have it in the main grade options but allow a suggested conversion at point of entry (hard to explain, you'll understand when you see the mockup). As far as which grade to use as the base - I won't. I'll have a table with an independent ID column and map grades against each other in there, allowing a grade to span multiple rows to allow for wierd overlaps. That will allow for situations where some grades have a wider 'range' than the equivalent in other systems. Um... like this: (all grades made up for speed)

ID	System1	System2	System3
1	1a	5.15	34
2	1b	5.16	34
3	1c	5.16	34
4	2a	5.20	35

When you enter a climb you get the lowest ID for the grade in your system. That would mean system3 34 would always convert to 1a, but 1a 1b or 1c would all map to 34.

Make sense?

[Serpico]

Makes sense. I've been trying to make an 'intensity' value for each grade recently so that you can compare the volume of work done on different days. It's been tricky getting the right feel, currently I'm using the exponential of the klimb grade ((EXP (grade))/10000), which seems to work, just a straight addition of all the grades done in a day gives you a value  where 10 x V1 gives a higher intensity score than 4 x Fr8a, whereas multiplying the grades exponentially seems to reflect the intensity of effort better.
With your method assigning an intensity value would be a lot easier.

[csurfleet]

That makes sense too. Unfortunately thats going to get even more difficult to calculate when you factor in things like fingerboard workouts too :S

Got the list of workout types (and the underlying entities) pretty much finalised now, I'm open to comments on things I've missed though:
- Fingerboard workouts
- Route climbing workouts (covers roped and unroped to deal with routes, laps, circuits and traverses)
- Boulder workouts (covers both single problem sets and NxN style sets)
- Weights workouts (all resistance stuff inc body weight)
- Aerobic workouts

Getting some common queries coded over the next couple of days, then got a potentially great meeting at the weekend which may mean things speed up somewhat

[ghisino]

do the fingerboard workouts include campus boarding?

[csurfleet]

Aha! No they do not. I'll add a campus workout to that list. 

[csurfleet]

Having some trouble figuring out the campus boarding sets. I don't do a whole lot of campusing (too weak!) so advice from the beastlier among you would be appreciated. Heres a few of the things I'd think people want to log, in English. If you think I've missed anything let me know.

Firstly, I see a set as a set of campus exercises rather than a set of individual movements, so a 1-3-5 ladder would be one rep of the set.

"I did a set laddering 1-3-5 for 4 reps with 1min rest between"
"I did a set laddering 1-2-3-4-5-6-5-4-3-2-1 for 1 rep"
"I did a set dynoing(whats the common name here) 1-4-7 for 3 reps"
"I did a set dynoing 1-6-1 for 2 reps"

[slackline]

I too don't use a campus board, but I get the impression that a "set" will be hyper-variable, so perhaps if its possible allow people to enter 1-n1-n2-n3-n4-ni x Y reps leading with left/right/dyno.

[csurfleet]

Hmm, not sure I follow there tbh slackster!

[heelhookofglory]

With regards to grade-mapping I spent quite a bit of time a few months ago trying to create a table which would help with finding training weaknesses. For example, if your boulder max is 8A but you only climb F7a on bolts then it would suggest a lack of endurance and then go on to suggest workouts to help combat this (very raw example but you get the point).

There were quite a few people involved including a few training guru's from the other channel along with Tom Randell and Robbie Phillips, who all added excellent input. It's still far from complete, though, as things started to get really complicated when we started talking about AnCap, AeroCap etc., workouts and how each workout would tie into the chart and affect climber's grades etc.

Chris, I'll show you the conversations we had and a working version of the chart when we meet up. It might make things easier (or more difficult!).

[slackline]

Well, we'd all like to be able to do 1-5-9, but thats a long way off for most, so rather than hard-coding in all possible combinations why not have it configured to allow users to specify their own sets.

Thus you could have...

Rep	Person 1	Person 2	Person 3
Leading Hand	Left	Right	Left
Feet on?	Yes	No	Yes
Start / n0	1	1	1
n1	2	5	3
n2	3	9	5
n3	4	5	7
n4	5	1	-
n5	6	5	-
n6	7	9	-
n7	8	5	-
n8	9	1	-

Basically there are waaay too many permutations for you to hard code so allowing the user to say I've done n_x moves on campus board and then to specify what each of those are would be more flexible and accommodating (maybe, although it might be a nightmare to code).

[csurfleet]

Aaaaah, right!

Yeah I'd already figured that people could enter their own rung combinations, sorry that wasn't clear. You're right about leading with either hand though - I'd forgotten about that one, and the feet on bit is also good. I'll get them added into the model

Steve, that sounds great we'll get into it on Sunday.

[Grubes]

Steve,
What ever you do don't go to his house ...

[esox]

That makes sense too. Unfortunately thats going to get even more difficult to calculate when you factor in things like fingerboard workouts too :S

Got the list of workout types (and the underlying entities) pretty much finalised now, I'm open to comments on things I've missed though:
- Fingerboard workouts
- Route climbing workouts (covers roped and unroped to deal with routes, laps, circuits and traverses)
- Boulder workouts (covers both single problem sets and NxN style sets)
- Weights workouts (all resistance stuff inc body weight)
- Aerobic workouts

Getting some common queries coded over the next couple of days, then got a potentially great meeting at the weekend which may mean things speed up somewhat

Should stretching/mobility training be a workout type too? It does have significant effect on whole training. It doesn't have to be complicacted though, maybe just type and time used for it.

[csurfleet]

Steve,
What ever you do don't go to his house ...

You should see my new bathroom. I installllllllled it and everything! Also, the filth wizard moves out next week - payrise from work just about covers his rent. I'm a happy man :D You coming to the wall tonight btw fatboy?

Should stretching/mobility training be a workout type too? It does have significant effect on whole training. It doesn't have to be complicacted though, maybe just type and time used for it.

Makes sense. I'll add it to the 'to do' list. Which is growing faster than I'm ticking things off it!

[Grubes]

nah not tonight ..  plus how can you call anyone fat boy at the moment?

[erm, sam]

Just a thought: It would be useful if you could make the training log viewable by others so eg ones coach could review your training etc..

Will you have a planning function with eg a calendar or timeline to plan training phases or what have you, rather than just being able to record what sessions have already happened?

[csurfleet]

The whole coach/student relationship was something I'd considered and I'd hope I'll add that but TBH unless we got a small team of coders on the go you're looking at a couple of years minimum before I got round to it (I'm finding the time for about 5-10hrs a week at the moment). On the other hand it could end up an easy feature, I'll have to see as the app comes together!

The planning function is a definite though, one of the big things I want to do is allow you to visualise your past and future training against standard and customised training plans - like periodised or pyramids or whatever. Thats going to be a big function of the AI stuff - recognising these sorts of patterns and advising you accordingly.

Update: Nowt done the last 5 days, been waiting for a reference manual which is now sat on my desk. Things should happen swiftly this week now

[Grubes]

 

[slackline]

The domain has been registered.

[csurfleet]

Work continues on this and there will be an update in a couple of days. Basically we're nearing the point where I have to decide if I should release a very early beta version with not much in the way of functionality but start getting all the valuable feedback from you guys, or wait a couple more months until it becomes something with enough features to be properly useful to a lot of people and save myself hosting fees.

I haven't forgotten you 

Grubes, I'll bring the lappy round yours later this week if you want a preview look.