[Paul B]

California fell through this year which probably isn't such a terrible thing as it means when we do get around to it, less of the leading will fall to me (and thus we'll hopefully be a bit quicker).

However, we did opt to trade that for 3 weeks in the Verdon. Last time I was there was mid-6 month-trip, I was fairly fit but my MP experience was fairly limited and suffice to say that first ab in was Nats first time abbing full stop. We managed ok but the routes we did were the easiest of the easy ones. Over the last season or so Nat has managed to push her grade up to a point that we can consider some of the more classic harder lines (Gwendal, pichenbule etc.) and ultimately I'd like to go up one of the solid 7's that tackle the gorge bottom to top in its longest section.

However, carrying a bag (water), shoes, and trailing a second rope (we only had singles then) rapidly became quite tiring . Can anyone suggest how to best avoid this (without suggesting I go to the Cornice instead) or that I take nothing. Also, for the fully bolted routes, is the only benefit (a big one) of using two ropes retreat (if starting from the bottom, approach if not)?

[metal arms]

We had some light(ish) half ropes, and just carried a camelbak with water (and biscuits, just in case).  Also walked in from the bottom in flip-flops so we could easily stuff them in our bag.

I know for March du Temps it is dead easy to ab in, and this is (pretty much) bottom to top.  We liked having the half ropes as you can reduce drag on the wigglier (and straight up) pitches by clipping alternately.

Enjoy - I fuckin' love the Verdon!

Chris

[Paul B]

did you happen to do March du Temps? I'm interested in the bolting etc. I wonder if its quicker with this one to start from the Jardin du Eccureils (clearly not spealt corretly) with the abbing or to just walk in.

A few people we knew turned up with some obscene lengths of static that appeared to make their holiday a good bit easier at times. Plus approaching down the line meant they had a pretty good exit strategy!

[SA Chris]

2 ropes can occasionally be handy if there's any traversing type stuff to protect the second, if you sort your ropework out properly. Most routes follow fairly direct lines though, and traverses shouldn't be much of an issue.

I'd personally not want to commit to a long multipitch route in verdon without a safe escape plan. Last thing you want to do is have to start rapping off single bolts if waether has gone wrong, or you have to deal with an emergency.

As far as travelling light goes, you haven't got much of a choice. I've done routes there with just a pair of sandals clipped to my harness, and drank as much water as possible before setting off, but travelling light means higher risks.

[metal arms]

did you happen to do March du Temps? I'm interested in the bolting etc. I wonder if its quicker with this one to start from the Jardin du Eccureils (clearly not spealt corretly) with the abbing or to just walk in.

A few people we knew turned up with some obscene lengths of static that appeared to make their holiday a good bit easier at times. Plus approaching down the line meant they had a pretty good exit strategy!

Nope.  The guys we were out there with did though.  So I got a bit of info.  Not got the guide to hand but they abbed it from the top and only missed out the bottom couple? of pitches.  They said the bolting was fine - Verdon standard with bolts in hard sections and run outs in easier bits.  The aid pitch was no bother, it's more just pulling on tat.  They did say the Rockfax topo was a bit out R.E. pitch grades and belay points, but had no trouble sorting themselves out.

[Paul B]

Its amazing, I've got both of the Verdon guides and both are equally as shit. The coronn PDF and the hand drawn topo's you can find via google are much more useful. What the hell is the point of taking a picture from the opposite side of the valley or valley top for finding routes when stood at the bottom or the top; features don't look the same and when approaching the top you can't see a f*cking thing either and you're left to find faded words surrounding bolts /rant.

[TobyD]

Hi Paul, i've done a lot of long routes in the USA, with a single line, plus a tag tine, and used a very light hauling set up (with a tibloc or ropeman). tag lines 5-7mm. You can trail and haul, so the second gets a good shot at climbing, or coil the tagline (thin lines tangle horribly unless watched like a hawk) and stash in the pack for easier pitches. I'd recommend this approach, and would personally prefer it to doubles, unless the climbing dictates their use. I've always used a BD bullet pack for this - there amy be better options for bags but it need to be pretty solid whatever! \hope that is of some help, PM me for any more info if you want it, T

[Paul B]

We hauled the bag on one of the routes but I can clearly remember it getting stuck beneath an overlap of sorts and yarding on it to get it past; I was very aware that our only set of van keys were there, in the cheapest decathlon bag I could find. Not good.

[ChrisC]

I'd personally not want to commit to a long multipitch route in verdon without a safe escape plan.

Its amazing, I've got both of the Verdon guides and both are equally as shit.

What the hell is the point of taking a picture from the opposite side of the valley

A couple of mates had a bit of an epic on our last trip there, which led to us talking more about escape plans should they be needed.  From the rockfax topo it seems you can ab to the ground about ~50m away from the base of the L'Ange en Decomposition abseils.  Upon arrival its pretty clear that the ground just isn't there despite it looking like it its in the topo.

Similar confusion looking for this big connected garden on the approach to Pichenbule eventually led us to the realisation that they were foreground trees.  That is, trees that are actually on the opposite site of the valley in the foreground of where the photo was taken, but far enough away to not look like it.  In itself not a problem, but when you add that to the topography of the Verdon (ie the large jardain ledges) then it gives a pretty confusing impression of the crag till you work it out and leaves scope for flawed escape/approach plans by assuming you can wander between these Jardains or the 'ground'

The new local verdon topo is considerably better than the rockfax and worth getting if your there for any length of time.

We were there late March so not too hot and very quiet, this meant less water having to be carried etc.   We climbed on a pair of trad ropes, also made the abs easy. Some were climbing on 100m ropes. 

[ChrisC]

Also, if you do Pichenbule then its easy to take a wrong turn on the 2nd pitch after the Jardain.  It's shown wrongly in the old local topo and not the way chalk and line leads you as its shared with an easier route.   The 5+ pitch felt closer to 6b+ also.  Chatting to a couple of locals on top the apparently these are both well known...   The top pitch was well bolted despite the rockfax saying otherwise - however we did topout slightly in the wrong place but I couldn't see any other lines branching off after the 7b+/A0 section so who knows.  Great route and the crux pitch is stunning, after this a better finish would be up Gwendal I think.

[duncan]

I love doing long routes and have thought about their logistics quite a bit over the years so my quick post turned into a bit of an essay...

I think there are three choices of ropes: a long (80+m) single, standard (60m) single + tag-line, or (50-60m) doubles.  I’ve used all three, each has it’s pros/cons and are best suited to different styles of climbing. 

A long single is easy to handle; is light for the leader as s/he climbs; makes linking pitches easy, speeding things up on easier ground; has no knot to catch when abseiling.  Disadvantages: heaviest to carry and one person in the team gets most of the weight (your partner might think this is an advantage!) so less good for long walk-ins; in some areas abseil anchors are 45-50m apart; not so good for wandering lines; you can’t haul; no redundancy - if your rope is damaged it gets complicated.  Best for most sport routes and some trad.

The tag line system is lightest overall and good if you want to haul on some pitches.  Otherwise I think it is a pain.  Most of the time the tag line does nothing; there is no redundancy; tag-lines tangle easily if you trail them or are a significant weight if you carry in the second’s pack; needs extra care when rigging the abseil and joining dissimilar thickness ropes.  Good if you have a strong leader and weaker second or are doing a day and a half big-wall style route with compulsory hauling.

Doubles have the familiar advantages on wandery trad. lines. They have more redundancy if damaging a rope is a possibility (sharp granite or rock-fall); the load can be equally split; they allow for sack hauling at a pinch.  Downsides: heavier than a single plus tag-line; rope management is more complex than a long single (Brits. should be well-practiced if they do any trad.); the knot makes abseil hang-ups more likely than a long single.  Best for trad. and semi-alpine routes. 

Other long route ideas: If you have fixed anchors, use an guide belay device so the leader can drink, eat, change clothes etc. as s/he is belaying.  Use an adjustable leash such as a Purcell Prusik in 6mm or 7mm cord: cheaper and easier to adjust than a daisy chain and you can use the cord as emergency abseil sling.  Setting up a comfortably adjusted belay should take about 15 seconds with this combination.

Be ruthless about weight for everything.   La Sportiva flip-flops are great for lightweight walk-ins.  You don’t need that much water.  Cheapo very light waterproof: aim is to survive the afternoon thunderstorm not worry about breathability. 

Finally, make sure you wear some lime-green, turquoise or other Euro. coloured clothing and locals will not immediately assume you are slow and incompetent Brits. and hence have a overwhelming desire to overtake you...

[tomtom]

Finally, make sure you wear some lime-green, turquoise or other Euro. coloured clothing and locals will not immediately assume you are slow and incompetent Brits. and hence have a overwhelming desire to overtake you...

excellent advice

[Paul B]

Thanks for the rope advice duncan.

Also, if you do Pichenbule then its easy to take a wrong turn on the 2nd pitch after the Jardain.  It's shown wrongly in the old local topo

by old which do you mean? I don't have the old hand-drawn version, I've got the first photo topo version (which appears to have had another edition released), plus rockfax. I'm pretty loathed to have to update again given they're over £30.

[ChrisC]

Umm.  Not sure of the full guide history - but the one before the latest I think.  I didn't buy it the guy I was climbing with did so can't check.  I wouldn't bother getting another one if you have others, just be aware its wrong in one/some of them.

From memory then you go up left from the belay for about 10m, then instead of following an obvious diagonal line in the same direction you traverse left round a rib to traverse a slab into a groove which is then climbed to the belay.  I only mention it because we didn't and it was a bit of a faff to lower back and across to where we should have been.

[mrjonathanr]

Isn't Gwendal the 7b groove around pitch 3 or so then lots of 6b - 6c+ to the top? I did that as a youth, walked in , tiny day sac with a litre or two of water, 2 tops and a torch, one normal single rope (would have been 50 or 55m then). The groove was bolted to aid if you liked, the rest was just six 3* pitches to the top. Must have taken about 9 hours I guess.

[Paul B]

they don't intersect until the top section.

[Paul B]

La Sportiva flip-flops

has anybody got experience of Vibram finger type shoes for this use (I have to say they make me feel silly just looking)? Flip flops will almost certainly leave me falling off the edge of the Gorge, even with sticky rubbered soles!

[butters]

La Sportiva flip-flops

The Stanage Show Pony is already planning on getting a pair to do WSS in allegedly.

[Paul B]

Flip flops will almost certainly leave me falling off the edge of the Gorge, even with sticky rubbered soles!

[Muenchener]

Doubles have the familiar advantages on wandery trad. lines.

I use 50m Beal Ice Lines (8mm half ropes) for alpine multi-pitch, either sport or trad, mainly for the abseil range. But I almost always use them as twins, so next time I'm buying 60m twins for about the same weight and 10 metres more abseil range.

Regarding stuck ab ropes, I learned on Sunday that leading back up on a single 8mm to retrieve the other rope that has jammed feels pretty f*cking sketchy, and a single 7.5mm would feel even sketchier. But both are a whole lot less sketchy than soloing up "protected" by a prusik on the jammed single rope would be.

rope management is more complex than a long single (Brits. should be well-practiced if they do any trad) 

Whereas if you're climbing with foreigners who have never seen doubles before, they can oh so completely bugger up the ropework. As I also learned earlier this year, resulting in my being glad that so many Dolomite routes have convenient walk-off ledges in the middle.

[Muenchener]

La Sportiva flip-flops

has anybody got experience of Vibram finger type shoes for this use (I have to say they make me feel silly just looking)? Flip flops will almost certainly leave me falling off the edge of the Gorge, even with sticky rubbered soles!

I use Merrell Trail Gloves. They're excellent. Good enough grip, protect the feet far better than sandals, far lighter and less obtrusive than approach shoes to carry on the back of a harness. About the most comfortable shoes I've ever had too. And unlike VFF they don't look stupid. Frau M even went to try a pair on after she had (a) decided mine looked ok (b) compared their weight with her approach shoes. Sadly the fit didn't suit her. I have my suspicions about where this will end: with her carrying my lovely light slippers and me carrying her heavy, clunky cut-down mountain boots.

[chillax]

Flip flops will almost certainly leave me falling off the edge of the Gorge, even with sticky rubbered soles!

How about Sportiva sandals then?

[duncan]

Sportiva Flip-Flops were a semi-serious suggestion but obviously just for easy approaches/descents (I have climbed with someone who scrambled up and down some scary stuff in them, but he was a just a bit competent).

I use Merrell Trail Gloves. They're excellent. Good enough grip, protect the feet far better than sandals, far lighter and less obtrusive than approach shoes to carry on the back of a harness. About the most comfortable shoes I've ever had too. And unlike VFF they don't look stupid. Frau M even went to try a pair on after she had (a) decided mine looked ok (b) compared their weight with her approach shoes. Sadly the fit didn't suit her. I have my suspicions about where this will end: with her carrying my lovely light slippers and me carrying her heavy, clunky cut-down mountain boots.

I've tried on Trail Gloves and they seemed ideal for the purpose.  Fortunately the shop didn't have my size otherwise I'd have instantly been £85 lighter.  If the Merrels don't fit, the Innov8 bare grip 200 might be worth a try.  Also rather spendy. 

[slackline]

All the Merrels I've ever owned fell apart way too quickly, poor quality IMO (none of them were the mentioned Trail Gloves though, so they may hold up).

[Muenchener]

Other long route ideas: If you have fixed anchors ... Use an adjustable leash such as a Purcell Prusik in 6mm or 7mm cord: cheaper and easier to adjust than a daisy chain and you can use the cord as emergency abseil sling.  Setting up a comfortably adjusted belay should take about 15 seconds with this combination.

I'm interested: what do you see as the advantage of using a purcell prusik (or other cow's tail style system) over just clove hitching in with the climbing rope(s)?