[slackline]

Is that the issue? Life expectancy has gone up, so we need to manage contributions exclusively to bolster pensions?

Its one of the issues, when people set out the plans for pensions they decided how long people were likely to be drawing them.  They therefore took the estimates of the time of life expectancy, these have changed so the calculations need to be revised.

Moreover when the 2006 review drew its conclusions, did they not know these facts? Is this new evidence, or just a new administration keen to raid the public purse?

Not aware of this review is it this one?  If you've read it, what conclusions does it draw?  What recommendations does it make as to how to handle pensions?

The shame is, if HMRC just got in the revenue lost to tax avoidance and evasion we'd not be having this debate... but then the Tories wouldn't be having many donations either.

No disagreement here.

[Jaspersharpe]

The shameful tax collection situation is a different (yet obviously connected) issue. Yes, if lots of things were done differently then lots of things would be different but it's sloper-esque to blur one argument with a different, related one so I'm not getting into that.

Whether or not to strike over the proposed changes to public sector pensions is the question and that was the point I was expressing an opinion on. I hate the fucking Tories but I think the unions have got this one wrong for the reasons I stated above.

[Andy B]

What Dave said (before the car gag).

I'm supposed to be on a course, that I asked to go on, on Thursday, but I feel that it would conflict with my principles not to strike. Gutted.

[Fultonius]

I'm supposed to be on a course, that I asked to go on, on Thursday, but I feel that it would conflict with my principles not to strike. Gutted.

Screw that - you're not working, you're learning! Is it at your place of work or somewhere else?

[Falling Down]

Is that the issue? Life expectancy has gone up, so we need to manage contributions exclusively to bolster pensions?

Partly that and partly to do with Brown and Balls' tax raid on the national pension pot a few years back.  We're turning into a nation of elderly coffin dodgers in comparison with not long ago when ( as a man) you retired at 65 and then died within a decade, if not sooner.

I'm staggered that unions are prepared to strike in protest to extending the working age.  I think most of you know that I sit right of centre on most issues but I respect the right to belong to a union and the movement his its place as a representation of workers rights.  However, I think it's a fucking disgrace that my bro' in law, a deputy head on a good salary and bens is going to strike next Thursday 'cos he's got to work until he's sixty five.  And to the OP, I'm not sure if you we're being funny but if you don't know why you're striking next Thursday then take good look in the mirror tomorrow morning and think if the Jarrow marchers would have said the same thing.

[clm]

The point our union rep made was that, together, the rise in contributions and some other adjustment was effectively a pay cut. There was some pledge a couple of years back that pay would not be reduced till 2014 or summat. The increase in age was on top of that.
I'm only sort of striking but I'm not allowed to talk about it.

[clm]

I teach, I'm for the cuts, I'm for the change to the system that does not work and already has bankrupted our country. 
Before reading on, I can't see this country ever being fixed - economically or philosophically.  With the foreign policy, welfare state (including NHS) and taxation - we dig deeper into a downward spiral of debt.  If we cut the spending across the board and had smaller government, then maybe the tax on our labor could be 0%.  I need to go back to the "were all ferked" thread.

My humble opinion:
I think the head teacher final salary pension system is disgusting.
Although we are overworked, underpaid (unless your in SLT  etc etc,) its not that bad at all really.
As long as you don't live beyond your means and have a comfortable life, who gives a shit. 

On a personal note, though I see the benefits of a pension scheme, I do think by the time I retire it will have evaporated with the rest of the economy - It's not even worth paying into one if you under the age of 40

Don't agree with much of this at all.

Overworked and underpaid? You're doing it wrong.

[ianv]

I'm staggered that unions are prepared to strike in protest to extending the working age.

Its not just about that, we were messing around with a pension calculator yesterday and a 29 yr old women who had worked 8 yrs would end up paying £70 pounds per month extra, have to work to 68 and receive £180K less in pension over a 20 year period after retirement.

When you take all three effects together I reckon its something to be angry about and what other recourse do teachers have but strike action?

[Baron]

Falling Down, I know why I'm striking - but it always good to find out more rather than just regurgitating
what the Union/Government have been spraying on about and thinking you know it all. Hence asking the collective wisdom of UKB to find out more - see 'Hansel'.

I can see both sides of the argument, but the bottom line is I stand to lose out. A big part of my decision to go into teaching was the job security, holidays and the pension. People moaning about the strike are jealous. If I wasn't a teacher I'd be moaning about it too probably. However, I am a teacher and don't see why I should be made to feel ashamed because I made a smart career choice.

[clm]

I'm staggered that unions are prepared to strike in protest to extending the working age.

Its not just about that, we were messing around with a pension calculator yesterday and a 29 yr old women who had worked 8 yrs would end up paying £70 pounds per month extra, have to work to 68 and receive £180K less in pension over a 20 year period after retirement.

When you take all three effects together I reckon its something to be angry about and what other recourse do teachers have but strike action?

I'd be interested to know if the pension calculator offsets this against the 8 years extra wages. You'd earn close to 300000 in 8 years at the top of the payscale.
Probably too simplistic an argument.

[ianv]

Maybe its me being thick but, why do the extra wages need to offset anything? The wages will have been earned by working so its not like its free money.

[clm]

Good point. Thought I was being a bit simple when I wrote it.

[slackline]

Not that anyone should be obliged to, but wages could be used to invest in a private pension, or other form of savings for retirement.

[ianv]

Not that anyone should be obliged to, but wages could be used to invest in a private pension, or other form of savings for retirement.

The main issue is that people have paid into a pension scheme that they thought to be relatively decent and now find the goalposts changed and that no longer to be the case. Yes there is other provision but it is too late for some and an expensive compromise for pretty much everyone. You think you are going out with Beyonce and Jordan turns up, how fucked off would you be??

[mrjonathanr]

If Jordan were Kelly Rowland I'd be positively ecstatic. Never cared much for Beyonce. I dare say the feeling's mutual.

I digress: Slackline - I'm no expert but essentially the current system is what was approved, innit? knock yourself out

Jasper, I'm not trying to conflate issues but really I believe this is about grabbing money to balance books in other areas, not because teachers' pensions place an intolerable strain on the funds.

[mr__j5]

The main issue is that people have paid into a pension scheme that they thought to be relatively decent and now find the goalposts changed and that no longer to be the case. Yes there is other provision but it is too late for some and an expensive compromise for pretty much everyone. You think you are going out with Beyonce and Jordan turns up, how fucked off would you be??

You mean pretty much like everybody in the private sector that had a final salary pension and has now had it removed and had to pay more to get something of lesser value.

[Falling Down]

Falling Down, I know why I'm striking - but it always good to find out more rather than just regurgitating

Ah OK, good.  Apologies then as I misread your first post.  I still disagree with strike action in this situation though.

[Jaspersharpe]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2011/jun/27/government-unions-strike-talks?CMP=twt_fd

[slackline]

Got an update from my pensions providers yesterday, and they're expecting me to increase my member contribution, link my pensionable age to that of the state pension and a few other tweaks.

I don't work in the public sector, but should I be considering strike action, as its just not fair! 

[Jaspersharpe]

Hang on a minute, nobody pays anything towards my retirement but me! It's a fucking disgrace. 

I'm with you brother, let's down tools and walk out!!  Oh no hold on, that wont work, I only bill by the hour / job anyway so nobody will notice.

 

[johnx2]

Anyone hear Evan Davies interview Treasury Minister Justine Greening this morning on Today?

 BBC News - Today - Are public sector pensions affordable?

Her argument about 'unaffordability' fell apart, as did she, when he pointed repeatedly that the Hutton report on pensions shows total benefit payments, including pensions, actually peak this year as a proportion of GDP - 1.9%, then trend downwards to FY 2059/60. (The models behind this encompass life expecancy projections and much else.)

This is why we're now hearing about 'unacceptability' (to the private sector that is, many if not most of whose pension schemes took payment holidays during the stock market good times.)

The Hutton report, which was accepted by the Government, is the source:

http://cdn.hm-treasury.gov.uk/hutton_final_100311.pdf

check Chart 1.B: Projected benefit payments as a percentage of GDP – sensitivity analysis   anyone who doesn't believe me, and less with the 'obvious init' arguments.

[editing to add - here's the graph, found it on a blog]

[mrjonathanr]

Similarly, Nick Herbert seems unable to do more than squirm when asked about the same projection.

 Nick Herbert
Still, if they're really serious about reforming public sector pensions, I can think of a group who receive a £28k pension after 15 years service based on contributions funded mostly from the public purse, not personal contribution (3:1) and unbelievably generous widow/er's provision.

Now who are these people?

[slackline]

check Chart 1.B: Projected benefit payments as a percentage of GDP – sensitivity analysis   anyone who doesn't believe me, and less with the 'obvious init' arguments.

[editing to add - here's the graph, found it on a blog]

Interesting figure.

Gross Domestic Product is the market value of goods and services, of which varying levels of tax will be paid to the government, from which they can then pay pensions to civil servants.

So is this graph showing...

The cost of benefit payments is falling whilst GDP remains relatively static.

...or...

That GDP is increasing whilst the cost of benefit payments remains relatively static.

...or...

That both are increasing, but that GDP is projected to increase at a faster rate than benefit payments.

...or...

That both are decreasing, but that benefit payments are decreasing at a faster rate than GDP


Obviously its based on a model and the assumptions of that model will in turn have a major influence (and hence the errors in purple around the projections), but that graph on its own does little to convince me of anything (and I've not had the time to read the full report).

[Johnny Brown]

Quite. I'm sure Hutton knows a damn sight more than I do about this, but what either of those will do over forty years is risky enough, let alone the relationship between them. Given how good analysts are at predicting the stock market, I imagine Mystic Meg would be more reliable.

[Jaspersharpe]

I thought the Hutton report said that people were going to have to work longer before they received public sector pensions anyway. And that they should be based on average earnings, not final salary.