[Muenchener]

I just finished an "advanced" technique course at my local boudering wall, in the course of which I learned that, while I have quite strong fingers relative to the other trainees and can sometimes hang things they can't, I am utterly hopeless at using my feet for anything other than the most basic standing on things.

In particular: toehooks. I can't bathang, as occasionally required in trick indoor comp problems. Nor - more importantly - can I reliably get any kind of useful support from them on roofs. So I've decided to follow the advice of all training manuals, take my weakness and train it until it becomes a strength.

But how?

Bathangs I can see. I can hang from a pullup bar quite comfortably if I hook my entire ankle, but not from my toes. So that's just a matter of finding a hanging location with a nice safe head-first dropzone, and hanging until my shin muscles get stronger (or so I assume).

Making effective use of toehooks on roofs is another story. Our trainer said I lack body tension. I don't think I lack core strength in a general sense: I can hold planks/tucked front levers for respectable lengths of time etc., and getting my feet up to the holds is not the issue. Doing anything useful with them once they're there is the problem. And here I have no idea what to even start trying. 

[SA Chris]

Getting the best from toe hooks under roofs etc relies on good core muscles AFAIK.

Work that belly.

[Jaspersharpe]

Ask our resident toehooking expert gme?

http://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,6644.msg187531.html#msg187531

[Nibile]

I think that when doing front levers the body tends to find a balanced position under the hands, more or less.
while climbing on roofs or very steep overhangs, our center of gravity is out of balance because we generally have the hand holds above (behind) our head. it's a bit like holding a fron lever with vertical arms under the bar.
of course a front lever is a good starting point but I think you have to apply that to the real climbing: even your toes will bear a lot of weight.
also, don't forget that when climbing you often have poorer holds than a bar or jug, so the overall effort required is higher.
finally, not every shoe is good for toehooking!

[RASTATA]

what about just climbing lot's of things that requires toehooking?

[douglas]

I agree with RASTATA. Toe hooking is more skill than strength. Training for toe hooking by bat-hanging is about at much use as hanging by your heels to get better at heel hooking. Set your own toe hook problems or even better, get a mate to set them for you.

[rodma]

what about just climbing lot's of things that requires toehooking?

This is a good idea, or just using toehooks to assist with moves where you wouldn't normally need to bother, because the move is easy for you, or start using them where you'd usually heelhook.

I agree with RASTATA. Toe hooking is more skill than strength. Training for toe hooking by bat-hanging is about at much use as hanging by your heels to get better at heel hooking.

I disagree strongly with this, since being able to toehook at full extension is most definately useful.

The problem I had was with toehooks in close, with leg bent. I trained this, by both doing what i suggested above, combined with bat-hanging a jug to do a combo of inverted sit-ups whilst trying to pull my knees up (down I guess) to meet my chest. This exercise totally nails your shins and hip-flexors, but that may be what you are after.

[Paul B]

Massive weakness of mine too. I managed to start to redress this by simply not avoiding Percy's perversions at the local wall. Dense seemed to find it quite amusing. Obviously its not totally a technique thing (being limp isn't going to help) but there's a fair amount of skill to transfer weight to a useful hook. Tight calves don't help either. My right leg is a bit dodgy in this department and its significantly worse than my left when I come to toehooks.

[Muenchener]

Training for toe hooking by bat-hanging is about at much use as hanging by your heels to get better at heel hooking.

I see what you mean, and thanks for the constructive advice, but ...

(a) bat-hanging as an end in itself. The setters at my local wall are (all too) fond of setting trick comp problems that start or end with bat-hangs. Not relevant for actual climbing, I know, but one of my goals is to place better in comps at this wall next year than I did this year, so this is definitely a hole in my "party tricks" armoury.

(b) the fact that I can hang from my whole foot over a bar, but not from my toes on a bar or my foot on a big flat hold, suggests to me a strength or activation deficit in my foot flexors that should be easily trainable. I don't suspect for a moment that this will solve the whole problem.

[rodma]

(b) the fact that I can hang from my whole foot over a bar, but not from my toes on a bar or my foot on a big flat hold, suggests to me a strength or activation deficit in my foot flexors that should be easily trainable. I don't suspect for a moment that this will solve the whole problem.

If you have big feet it's always going to be quite difficult (I obviously don't know if you do). My feet are absolutely tiny, so find bat-hanging from my toes an absolute piece-of piss (so long as I'm wearing the correct shoes).

[Muenchener]

If you have big feet it's always going to be quite difficult

I'm sure my size 45 feet aren't helping the situation. Whereas the size 43 Boosters I'm stuffing them into probably aren't part of the problem.

[Paul B]

boosters? I'm no scarpa expert but aren't those down-toed, i.e. an anti-hook boot?

[rodma]

boosters? I'm no scarpa expert but aren't those down-toed, i.e. an anti-hook boot?

Yeah, I wear the lady version and toehooking does require a little more mobility in the ankle and a more aggressive approach, than in a nice flat shoe

[webbo]

Ablity to toe hook also relies on ankle flexablity.If you can't pull your foot back so your toe is pointing towards your knee,it going to be difficult.

[SA Chris]

I'd be surprised if anyone could point their toe towards their knee. Of the same foot obviously.

As an aside, have you ever noticed that no matter how hard you push on your big toe to bend it backwards, it doesn't hurt? Or is it just mine?

[webbo]

I didn't actually mean the ablity to get you ankle at 45 degree angle but trying to get the point across about flexablity.

[SA Chris]

I know, I was being fecetious fasetious. Being a dick.