[petejh]

Not my patch but I noticed the 'visual intrusion' bit - may I suggest for future re-equipping (on allowable crags) you consider going with Bolt Products' 6mm twisted-leg resin bolts - they're very unobtrusive compared to any other bolt I've seen out there, way less visible than a petzl hanger or a fixe resin - almost invisible from the ground unless you look hard. Might make the landowners a bit happier. I think doylo's got a picture of them on his blog from pigeon's cave last year, the bolts not the landowners.

[Bonjoy]

may I suggest for future re-equipping (on allowable crags) you consider going with Bolt Products' 6mm twisted-leg resin bolts... ...from pigeon's cave last year.

Climbed down Pigeon's t other day and they are pretty unobtrusive so it could be a good way to go. My only issue was I thought they were going to snap they are so skinny!

The BMC did nearly go with buying these for the first round of the Better Bolts Campaign. There was a consultation with various folk involved and some testing of different bolt types. Having not seen these type bolts before a lot of us were put off by the thinness of them (they are made from 8mm bar) which totally distorted on pull testing. Also they require 16mm holes being drilled which has an impact on how many holes you get out of a battery charge. Also at the time we were told they were removable/twist-out, which we found to be total BS when we tried with a big bar. At the time they didn't seem like the best option on the table. However the PBF has just about run out of Fixe glue-ins so I might go with them this time round.
I've not climbed on them at all. Does anyone else who has have any thoughts on them? Does anyone else think I should get these for the PBF?

[Johnny Brown]

The main concern must be longevity. Already we've got places where three or four bolts have been placed in close proximity as the fixings become untrustworthy. This is after less than thirty years in most cases, and is totally unsustainable. I think we should be aiming for fifty year lifespans on these placements.

Resin P-bolts would seem to last the longest, though I'm not convinced 8mm bar will be enough to weather the years. Expansion bolts and hangers are still being used despite their proven limited lifespan, they do have the advantage of the potential for easier removal/ flattening though.

[petejh]

Just to clarify - the ones I mean are the twisted 6mm bar - they only require a 12mm hole, these are the bolts in pigeon's cave and elsewhere in North Wales. The larger bolts on LPT are twisted 8mm bar (16mm hole) 'sea water series', and are much more visible (partly because of the shiny duplex steel). 
There's no issue around bolt strength with the small 6mm bolts, they are well strong enough - over 30kn on pull tests in limestone, (up to 49kn in granite!) and the 8mm ones are insanely strong - around 50kn on pull tests (I talked to Jim and he said they only manufactured the 8mm ones because it was hard for some people to get used to the small size of the 6mm bolts). We did our own pull tests on them last year to confirm Bolt Products own tests and they confirmed the results. Being 6mm diameter, it's important to put a maillon and ring on the lower-off bolts so they don't wear through on popular routes.
Here's a link to Jim's (bolt products) site and their strength tests: http://www.bolt-products.com/StrengthandTests.htm

Commission

[Will Hunt]

Sounds like a no brainer. Are you sure you don't work for Bolt Products, Pete?!

Edit: Come to think of it aren't they the bolts that have been used to retrobolt Frogsmouth?

[Johnny Brown]

Do the 6mm eyes deform under a typical pre-use test of 6kN?

[Neil F]

Already we've got places where three or four bolts have been placed in close proximity as the fixings become untrustworthy. This is after less than thirty years in most cases, and is totally unsustainable.

When the Peak Bolt Fund drill was purchased, the donor felt sufficiently confident in the people who would be running the fund, that he made no requests / provisions on where it should be used.

He did, however, request that in all cases where routes were re-equipped, the old bolts (however many generations) must be removed (to stop our precious countryside becoming like a junkyard).  He provided several additional high spec drill bits specifically to help with this process.

He sincerely hopes this reequest didn't get forgotten...

[Johnny Brown]

I agree with the worthy completely Neil, but (NB I have very little experience in removing bolts) I wonder how realistic it is in some situations? Or was the idea to drill out the old bolts, and then resin a new one in the old hole?

I'd suggest before any more bolts are handed out the recipients get a thorough briefing on exactly where they should be putting them.

[Neil F]

...Or was the idea to drill out the old bolts, and then resin a new one in the old hole?

No, not at all.

I think there are all sorts of ways of getting old bolts out - from the high tec bar deployed by that guy in last week's debolting the 8b granite crack video, to the large hammer and enthusiasm which were Martin Berzins' weapons of choice back in the 80s!

My idea was that if all else failed, providing bits capable of drilling out metal, would mean an old bolt could be at least part-drilled out, and the hole then filled with resin with rock dust, or whatever.  There are people capable of doing a very neat job of such a task, so after a period of time, there will be little sign that there was ever a bolt there (though like you, I am not one of them!).

[account_inactive]

Already we've got places where three or four bolts have been placed in close proximity as the fixings become untrustworthy. This is after less than thirty years in most cases, and is totally unsustainable.

When the Peak Bolt Fund drill was purchased, the donor felt sufficiently confident in the people who would be running the fund, that he made no requests / provisions on where it should be used.

He did, however, request that in all cases where routes were re-equipped, the old bolts (however many generations) must be removed (to stop our precious countryside becoming like a junkyard).  He provided several additional high spec drill bits specifically to help with this process.

He sincerely hopes this reequest didn't get forgotten...

Was that written by Tony Simpson?

[petejh]

Do the 6mm eyes deform under a typical pre-use test of 6kN?

If, by 'typical pre-use test', you're referring to BS EN795 - 'Protection against falls from a height - Anchor devices - Requirements and testing', then the test isn't relevant or 'typical' in a non-industrial setting (one of the the EN 795 requirements is 5kn axial for a minimum of 15 seconds as you probably know). I've got a copy of EN 795 in front of me, being the geek I am. HSE's Work At Height Regs require anchors conform to the requirements of EN 795 with the exception of outdoor leisure activities, amongst a few others.

I've never carried out a 'pre use' pull-test on a bolt on an actual route, only on bolts in separate test blocks comprised of the same rock as that being bolted - and these tests conform to the standards relevant to 'mountaineering' - EN959 2007 (25kn axial/15kn radial) - 'Mountaineering equipment - Rock anchors-Safety requirements and test methods', and UIAA 123 2009 (25kn axial/20kn radial). I only know of one person (an aussie irata supervisor) who pull tests their bolts after placing them on routes and I wouldn't recommend it.

In short I don't remember the force at which the 6mm eyes deform because the emphasis of the pull tests was on passing 25kn. Sorry that's not much use to you! Email bolt products, Jim will probably know.

[Johnny Brown]

It might not be typical to do pre-use tests but I fail to see how it isn't relevant. When you've got the BMC sub-contracting rope access firms to place bolts on their land, I'd say a pre-use test along the lines of EN 795 would seem very sensible.

I only know of one person (an aussie irata supervisor) who pull tests their bolts after placing them on routes and I wouldn't recommend it.

So you cite the example of one of the few people who is likely to have had professional training in bolting, but you wouldn't you recommend it? Why not?

If folk agree the aim for bolts should be longevity, a pull-test can also help restore faith in bolts of unknown provenance. Just to remind folk, the Peak bolt fund has a pull-tester available for anyone who wishes to use it.

My idea was that if all else failed, providing bits capable of drilling out metal, would mean an old bolt could be at least part-drilled out, and the hole then filled with resin with rock dust, or whatever.  There are people capable of doing a very neat job of such a task, so after a period of time, there will be little sign that there was ever a bolt there (though like you, I am not one of them!).

It sounds great, and I agree it should be the intention, but my gut feeling is its unlikely to happen. I've drilled the odd bolt out at work and its been a pain - too much trouble I expect for most bolters. If the intention is reduce damage to the crag drilling out a big hole and then gluing it up would seem to be less preferable to grinding a stub off. My preference would be for bolts designed for very long-life and with the potential to be neatly chopped at the end.

[JC]

A battery powered angle grinder would be a very worthwhile investment for the PBF. Probably too expensive though! Trying to drill the old bolts out is not the way to go IMO, it would make even more of a mess surely, unless done to a high standard. 

[danm]

The BMC has a battery angle grinder for loan, and once the parts arrive, a core drill kit (for removing old expansion studs). I've got too many other work committments atm to do much myself, but we could easily arrange a work day/evening at a crag which needs cleaning up, where interested people could learn to use the kit. The core drill is slow and messy, but it does give the option of re-using an existing placement.

About bolt longevity. The BMC prefer the Bolt Products twisted leg bolts because the design is strong and has no parts or welds. Expected lifespan is approx. 50 years, assuming no wear. The 6mm ones are very inobtrusive. The 8mm ones are better for soft rock as they flex less, but of course take much longer to drill a hole for.  Probably a better choice for popular routes/crux bolts.

Let me know if you want to get together to look at some of the different bolting/bolt removal options, talk about pull testing etc.

[Doylo]

The 12 mm twistys are perfect for battery drills. If you're putting quite a few in with the 16 mm bolts ideally you'd want a petrol drill

[kc]

The removal of old bolts is a thankless task and I believe the onus to remove them should not necessarily lie on the shoulder of the person that has gone to the effort to rebollt the thing. I have removed hundreds of old bolts and have the scars to prove it. Quite often bolts can not be removed on the same day especially on steep routes as the resin will not have set in the new bolts, making it difficult to pull into position. A return visit with extra tools is required.
 The Peak Bolt Fund does not lack resources it lacks skilled volunteer's. If you don't have the necessary skills to bolt but think you can wield an anglegrinder, turn a spanner, drill off nuts, then the gear is available.
A well placed Fixe bolt should last donkeys years and does not stand out that much over other suggested options, as long as crabs and chains are not left attached.

Don't you dare suggest I would retro-bolt E4's with galvanized gear. I don't mix my metals, just my drinks.

[petejh]

It might not be typical to do pre-use tests but I fail to see how it isn't relevant. When you've got the BMC sub-contracting rope access firms to place bolts on their land, I'd say a pre-use test along the lines of EN 795 would seem very sensible.

I only know of one person (an aussie irata supervisor) who pull tests their bolts after placing them on routes and I wouldn't recommend it.

So you cite the example of one of the few people who is likely to have had professional training in bolting, but you wouldn't you recommend it? Why not?

If folk agree the aim for bolts should be longevity, a pull-test can also help restore faith in bolts of unknown provenance. Just to remind folk, the Peak bolt fund has a pull-tester available for anyone who wishes to use it.

You'll have to take my word for it but I absolutely promise you that the aussie irata supervisor I cited was/is the most incompetent, dangerous, tool I've ever met in my life and I wouldn't have trusted him to supervise anything without fucking it up or endangering his team. If an irata supervisor is a person 'who's received professional training in bolting' (it isn't) then I'm a professionally-trained bolter (I'm not).
I wouldn't recommend pull-testing the bolts you place in routes because, as anyone who's done a lot of routes will know, it's over the top and an unnecessary waste of the bolter's precious time and effort if he (or she) has already tested the same bolts with the same method of cleaning and gluing in a sample block of the same material, and you know where and where not to place bolts on a route (i.e. testing for good versus bad rock). Other reasons for not pull-testing are potential damage to the rock. By pull-testing bolts you're implying you don't trust yourself to place them correctly, nice to have that reassurance I guess but it shouldn't be necessary if you're experienced and it's unrealistic to expect it of others in a recreational setting.

Which rope-access company's are being funded to place bolts? I'm certainly not receiving a penny from anyone and I don't know of anyone who is in North Wales, maybe the peak's different but I can't see how paying a rope-access company to bolt your local crags is a positive thing. There are so many clueless irata members out there who know how to place bolts in an industrial setting but who don't have much of a clue in a recreational setting (and vice versa) that using an irata company who place bolts in the workplace is no guarantee of a good job on a sport crag. Likewise there are many good irata members too - the point being that irata is a red-herring when it comes to deciding if someone would be good at sport-climb bolting.
If there are companies being paid to place bolts I suggest they should be doing it to the relevant standard, the standard in this case being the ones used for 'mountaineering' so the standard would be EN 959, not EN 795. Not that I'm suggesting you do, but if you want sport-climbing protection bolts to come under the control of the HSE's Work At Height Regs, which by bringing rope-access companies in to bolt crags and having bolts tested to EN 795 implies , then I suggest next time you're out climbing you make sure that you're using two independently anchored top-ropes on the grit and that you write out a comprehensive risk assessment for lead climbing. Nobody will thank you for trying to make re-bolting sport routes more like rope-access in the workplace.

[Paul B]

A battery powered angle grinder would be a very worthwhile investment for the PBF.

Bonjoy looked into this but as KC bought one it was put on the backburner.

[Paul B]

Not my patch but I noticed the 'visual intrusion' bit - may I suggest for future re-equipping (on allowable crags) you consider going with Bolt Products' 6mm twisted-leg resin bolts - they're very unobtrusive compared to any other bolt I've seen out there, way less visible than a petzl hanger or a fixe resin - almost invisible from the ground unless you look hard. Might make the landowners a bit happier. I think doylo's got a picture of them on his blog from pigeon's cave last year, the bolts not the landowners.

There were a load of these placed in the floor at Horseshoe and the pull testing was very interesting. They deform ridiculously easily under load compared to the others tested (maybe even Mr Gibsons U bolts?), even a krab with a sling on it and me yanking on the end was enough to see visible movement on the eye of the bolt. The sustainable aspect was also checked, all of the bolts tested (to the best of my knowledge) sheared off and this is when they were in perfect condition.

I can see the benefit of a non welded design but I wasn't left feeling like they were the future.

[petejh]

Interesting, thanks Paul. Could you clarify what you mean by sheared off - as in they snapped?! - that hasn't been our experience of testing these.

[Paul B]

Yes, the heads snapped off (this wasn't in pull testing). This could be entirely down to the removal technique (looking into it I'd say so, the method was hammering to break down the glue then applying leverage) being incorrect however I seem to remember consensus being that it would be a feat in itself to do this when hanging on a rope rather than on a quarry floor and likely a two man job.

[Johnny Brown]

Which rope-access company's are being funded to place bolts?

One of the Sheffield firms were contracted to replace bolts in Horseshoe - which is owned by the BMC. This is not a secret, it was widely discussed on the forums at the time. The issues were badly sited and suspect bolts at a site where the landowner clearly carries a level of responsibiltity.

There are so many clueless irata members out there who know how to place bolts in an industrial setting but who don't have much of a clue in a recreational setting (and vice versa) that using an irata company who place bolts in the workplace is no guarantee of a good job on a sport crag. Likewise there are many good irata members too - the point being that irata is a red-herring when it comes to deciding if someone would be good at sport-climb bolting.

Of course. Amazingly, neither I nor the others concerned are idiots. Hence why a firm was chosen with experienced sport climbers in both contracts management and on the tools. One of the most experienced local sport activist was even funded through his Level 1 so his expertise could be utilised. I agree, IRATA is not relevant when choosing someone to place bolts, but it is highly relevant if you wish to pay someone to work on a cliff face with power tools.

I am not trying to bring the WAHR into this or suggesting all bolts should be pull-tested, I'm just surprised you see no place for pull testing on the crags. My opinion is that in some circumstances it has its place. If a bolt can't withstand a basic pull test (not dissimilar to the forces in a fall) without deformation then I wouldn't be convinced of its potential longevity.

Don't you dare suggest I would retro-bolt E4's with galvanized gear. I don't mix my metals, just my drinks.

Who suggested that?

All of this 'how' is a big tangent though. What matters currently is that any bolters need to be absolutely sure of where they may bolt. What would be really good is if one of the active bolters would offer some time to attend the odd meet and to be a conduit for information for the others. Any takers?

[petejh]

Agree with that, and appologies for taking this thread off topic. I agree pull-testing has it's place, I'm just a bit touchy about any risk of it becoming regarded as the norm rather than the exception.