[heelhookofglory]

I'm looking to add some supplemental training along side my climbing, thinking fingerboard, dead-hangs and some core work as I've hit a bit of a plateau at Ft7A (still struggling a lot on most 7As too). I've not really 'trained' before, just climbed a lot. Any advice on this? I really seem to struggle on problems which require lock-offs and finger strength. I've been climbing for just under 18 months so I don't want to jump onto campus boards etc., if it may cause tendon problems but I do feel I need to start doing something as well as just climbing...

Then, also adding some exercises to correct muscle and posture imbalances, i.e. shoulders etc. Any advice on this would be appreciated, too.

Of course, my main diet will still be plenty of time on rock as I understand how important that is.

Thanks in advance guys (and gals).

[Kingy]

Supplement your sessions on rock with say one fingerboard session of no more than 1 hour per week involving pullups on edges and pockets and some pull ups on a bar or jugs until you have really worked your lats. This will provide you with extra finger strength and arm/shoulder power to beef up your rock skils.

I know its probably not what you want to hear but just keep on climbing on rock, making sure you get really worked after every session, don't overdo it mind or that might lead to injury. You will be surprised at results, in 12 months time, I wouldn't be surprised if you've jumped a few grades. Take adequate rest as well, 4 sessions a week is perfect, probably 2 outside, 2 indoors if ur a weekend warrior like me!

Good luck with it

[Falling Down]

 

Just keep on doing what you're doing Steve.  You seem pretty psyched and enjoy climbing so just stick with it.  At this point you're probably better working your base, adding lots of volume and experience than trying push your top line performance.

From your UKC Fit Club posts you seem to be excited by all aspects of climbing which is great so whilst the weather is good, go and get some routes experience under your belt regardless of grade.  Why not aim to do 200 Staffs grit routes and some multi pitching in Wales before the end of the Summer?

[tommytwotone]

Alright Steve,

Agree with Kingy / FD's points, though if you're looking for some info regarding specific antagonist stuff I started a thread a while back that has 3 pages of very useful info to look at:

http://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,10847.0.html

I got a rollocking from my physio regarding my "migrated" (i.e. hunched) shoulders / general awful posture - I'm in for a an impinged tendon / bursitis at the moment.

Interesting that this the winter just gone I ditched the gym-based antagonist exercises in favour of more climbing training...but then again I'm a relatively stressy, deskbound office jockey, 33 years old, poor diet, too much booze etc etc so I'm sure that there's a fair mix of possible causes for this effect.

[robertostallioni]

[fried]

Same as T2T, my physio reckons my shoulder and elbow problems are caused by bad posture. There is a lot of information on this site, someone recently started a thread on posture exercises, plus anything by the Sausage is worth reading.

A wad point or two for anyone who can manage to get all this information in one place

I'm a bit rushed this morning to do a search

[rodma]

both me and the mrs have been working on our posture since Feb this year and I, at least, am starting to see/feel some good improvements. I have not been using the fingerboard at all though, since I cannot keep my shoulders back and down yet when both hands are basically next to one another in front of me.

[heelhookofglory]

Supplement your sessions on rock with say one fingerboard session of no more than 1 hour per week involving pullups on edges and pockets and some pull ups on a bar or jugs until you have really worked your lats.

Sounds good. I've started doing this, actually, for the first time. I'm working on some assisted repeaters and am going to introduce some encores, too, although I can only manage assisted on small edges at the mo.

I know its probably not what you want to hear but just keep on climbing on rock, making sure you get really worked after every session.

...and...

Just keep on doing what you're doing Steve.  You seem pretty psyched and enjoy climbing so just stick with it.  At this point you're probably better working your base, adding lots of volume and experience than trying push your top line performance.

I think that's what's bothering me. Last year, this is all I was doing and I was very happy with my progress. Since around Christmas I've been focusing on just volume of easy moves and some easy routes. I've not worked on strength / threshold at all, really. I like to feel like I've beasted myself every now and again, makes me feel good. Then this week I ventured off down the Churnet to work some old projects and I felt really weak on them and then a 4x4 session left me feeling much weaker than last year, too. I started panicking about strength- and endurance-loss. Hence my post.

From your UKC Fit Club posts you seem to be excited by all aspects of climbing which is great so whilst the weather is good, go and get some routes experience under your belt regardless of grade.  Why not aim to do 200 Staffs grit routes and some multi pitching in Wales before the end of the Summer?

Again, as above really. You are right, of course, though. This does really need to be my staple diet, and will continue to be. However, I do feel I need to supplement with some strength work and will probably include 1 or 2 bouldering sessions per week and maybe a fingerboard workout for 4 weeks, then a break from it and then hit it again after a short while.

My thing is I need to feel like I've really worked hard, physically. Or else I go home thinking I've slacked off and feel like crap. Most of my focus does need to be on head-game and rope / gear skills at the moment, as that's my weakness area, but I really do need to still feel physically 'beasted'.

Thanks for the advice and thank you, too, for the posture information / links. I'll have a read through all of that as soon as I get a mo. Right now, it's sunny outside and some of my Churnet project's are calling me!

Thanks again!

[Johnny Brown]

An hour of yoga a week will sort your posture out quicksmart, plus you'll get some flexibility and core strength into the bargain. Ashtanga seems to suit climbers best.

[Dexter]

I also found pilates to be pretty good for posture since my shoulders used to be terrible from a combination of too much climbing and sat working at a desk. Also really good for the core/balance etc.
If you really want to feel beasted after a session I have always found projecting something at my limited seemed to do this pretty well since I was continually trying moves at my limit for 3+ hours at a go so if youre going to churnet a lot try getting a nails project and trying it over and over (I spent an entire day just trying rock atrocity once and believe me try that and you will feel it the next day). Also when you finally get it it will feel like a great achievement and a nice tick too.

[shark]

Good intro here: http://hallamshirephysiotherapy.com/climbing_injuries.pdf and some good blog entries relating to climbing and core too.
For the below climbers gorilla posture condition this article written for bodybuilders who are also prone to suffering from the same condition is worth checking out. 




Personally I do twisting spinal stretches daily which also work straightening out the shoulders.



I also try to remember to stick my chest up without pushing my lower back in on a daily basis and do an occasional couple of sets of Serpico's Bolton complex tm

Without Swiss ball:
Military Press/ Overhead Squat x6  Curl the DB's to your shoulders, squat, do a military press, stand up, squat down, lower the DB's to shoulders and repeat.
Upright row x6
High pull snatch x6
Press ups on DBs x6 Press ups using the DB's as supports/handles
Straight arm Pullover x6 Roll on to your back arms extended (like Superman) and raise the DB's above your head with straight arms.
Bent Over rows x10

With Swiss ball:
Military Press/ Overhead Squat x6  Curl the DB's to your shoulders, squat, do a military press, stand up, squat down, lower the DB's to shoulders and repeat.
Upright row x6
High pull snatch x6
Dumbell flys on Swiss Ball x6
Straight arm Pullover x6 on Swiss Ball
Bent Over rows x10

[SA Chris]

An hour of yoga a week will sort your posture out quicksmart, plus you'll get some flexibility and core strength into the bargain. Ashtanga seems to suit climbers best.

Beat me to it. Got Hatha class in 10 mins! Warm me up for Ashtanga on Thursday, after two weeks of not doing any. Looking forward to it and dreading it at the same time.

[heelhookofglory]

Thanks, Shark. More great information there. Plenty to read through and digest.

Will also consider Yoga, as mentioned. Any thoughts on incorporating Yoga practice, Shark?

[shark]

Thanks, Shark. More great information there. Plenty to read through and digest.

Will also consider Yoga, as mentioned. Any thoughts on incorporating Yoga practice, Shark?

Great so long as you have the time and energy to fit it in without compromising more directly applicable training

[shark]

Without Swiss ball:
Military Press/ Overhead Squat x6  Curl the DB's to your shoulders, squat, do a military press, stand up, squat down, lower the DB's to shoulders and repeat.
Upright row x6
High pull snatch x6
Press ups on DBs x6 Press ups using the DB's as supports/handles
Straight arm Pullover x6 Roll on to your back arms extended (like Superman) and raise the DB's above your head with straight arms.
Bent Over rows x10

With Swiss ball:
Military Press/ Overhead Squat x6  Curl the DB's to your shoulders, squat, do a military press, stand up, squat down, lower the DB's to shoulders and repeat.
Upright row x6
High pull snatch x6
Dumbell flys on Swiss Ball x6
Straight arm Pullover x6 on Swiss Ball
Bent Over rows x10

Following a conversation with Reeve yesterday I have been pondering tweaking the above Bolton Complex. Ideally the exercises should be equally difficult but for me, Reeve and I suspect most others the Military Press / Overhead squat is likely to be the most difficult.

What I intend to do now (and have just done) is one set as above and a second set with heavier weights doing as many reps of the mil press/oh squat as possible but when weakening keep doing the squats with dumbells curled to the shoulder to complete the 6 reps then after that throw in a further set of 6 reps standing military press. Each exercise now feels equally difficult and you get to use heavier weights  .

Hope it meets with Serpico's approval....   

[shark]

Then, also adding some exercises to correct muscle and posture imbalances, i.e. shoulders etc. Any advice on this would be appreciated, too.

A small addition worth mentioning particularly for slumping desk jockeys who sit and stand with their feet splayed out - you probably need to activate your hips - pushing them in to sit straighter and have your feet parallel - chances are if you stick your hips out when bending over with a straight back you'll feel how tight your hamstrings are. It maybe that you are not as inflexible as you think but have fallen into the habit of not mobilising your hips. Again working on good squatting technique will help - doing timewarp pelvic thrusts optional.

[TobyD]

Following a conversation with Reeve yesterday I have been pondering tweaking the above Bolton Complex. Ideally the exercises should be equally difficult but for me, Reeve and I suspect most others the Military Press / Overhead squat is likely to be the most difficult.

you Sheffield boys and your iron pumping eh. 

Gardening is the real new cross training of choice.

[Dexter]

Following a conversation with Reeve yesterday I have been pondering tweaking the above Bolton Complex. Ideally the exercises should be equally difficult but for me, Reeve and I suspect most others the Military Press / Overhead squat is likely to be the most difficult.

you Sheffield boys and your iron pumping eh. 

Gardening is the real new cross training of choice.

true man been digging the last few weeks and its the best conditioning ever... also carrying concrete blocks around all day is great for pinch strength

[mrjonathanr]

An hour of yoga a week will sort your posture out quicksmart, plus you'll get some flexibility and core strength into the bargain. Ashtanga seems to suit climbers best.

Although Ashtanga is a 20th century system yoga has been practised since circa 6000 BC. Tried and tested I'd say.

[Serpico]

Without Swiss ball:
Military Press/ Overhead Squat x6  Curl the DB's to your shoulders, squat, do a military press, stand up, squat down, lower the DB's to shoulders and repeat.
Upright row x6
High pull snatch x6
Press ups on DBs x6 Press ups using the DB's as supports/handles
Straight arm Pullover x6 Roll on to your back arms extended (like Superman) and raise the DB's above your head with straight arms.
Bent Over rows x10

With Swiss ball:
Military Press/ Overhead Squat x6  Curl the DB's to your shoulders, squat, do a military press, stand up, squat down, lower the DB's to shoulders and repeat.
Upright row x6
High pull snatch x6
Dumbell flys on Swiss Ball x6
Straight arm Pullover x6 on Swiss Ball
Bent Over rows x10

Following a conversation with Reeve yesterday I have been pondering tweaking the above Bolton Complex. Ideally the exercises should be equally difficult but for me, Reeve and I suspect most others the Military Press / Overhead squat is likely to be the most difficult.

What I intend to do now (and have just done) is one set as above and a second set with heavier weights doing as many reps of the mil press/oh squat as possible but when weakening keep doing the squats with dumbells curled to the shoulder to complete the 6 reps then after that throw in a further set of 6 reps standing military press. Each exercise now feels equally difficult and you get to use heavier weights  .

Hope it meets with Serpico's approval....   

No, you've just ruined it for everyone...
I notice you've still not included the 6x Hammer curls to start, they're an important addition and get the DB's in the correct position for the OH squat/press combo.
As for each exercise not feeling equally difficult, it's more the case that you're not equally adept at each exercise, the point is that the OHS/MP combo is a weak area for most climbers, other athletes often have 15 x bodyweight OHS with a bar as a strength goal.
Keep the routine the same but do what you need to do to raise the level of your OHS/MP combo with supplemental work, start by perfecting the form and technique with light weights and high reps. Try wall squats with you hands above your head.

[Fultonius]

often have 15 x bodyweight OHS with a bar as a strength goal.

   

Anyone seen a decimal point anywhere, it seems to have gone missing 

[douglas]

often have 15 x bodyweight OHS with a bar as a strength goal.

   

Anyone seen a decimal point anywhere, it seems to have gone missing 

15 reps of squat with bodyweight on a bar Overhead Squat - Bodyweight x 15 reps

Regrading the original post, I don't value real rock climbing as much as pure strength / PE based indoor climbing (bouldering, systems, campusing, circuits, fingerboarding etc). Technique is easy, strength is harder to come by.

It sounds to me like you've done enough outdoor climbing to appreciate the value of good movement. To target your weak areas, lock offs and finger strength, I'd suggest climbing on a 40 degree board, repeating problems that are your real weakness. Be very careful not to get injured though, 7A is prime time for finger and elbow injuries. Keeping your core strong should help avoid tweaks.

[Serpico]

Technique is easy, strength is harder to come by.

Typically it's been my experience that people who say that don't understand the difference between technique and skill in climbing and just how much of an impact it makes on performance compared to strength which takes far less time to acquire.

[shark]

No, you've just ruined it for everyone...
I notice you've still not included the 6x Hammer curls to start, they're an important addition and get the DB's in the correct position for the OH squat/press combo.
As for each exercise not feeling equally difficult, it's more the case that you're not equally adept at each exercise, the point is that the OHS/MP combo is a weak area for most climbers, other athletes often have 15 x bodyweight OHS with a bar as a strength goal.
Keep the routine the same but do what you need to do to raise the level of your OHS/MP combo with supplemental work, start by perfecting the form and technique with light weights and high reps. Try wall squats with you hands above your head.

I love it when you tell me off for cheating 

Apologies for missing out the hammer curls - I do them..honest - but they are piss

Re the OHS/MP combo I am ok with the squat now having worked on straightening out my shoulders (can now lie down with arms out straight behind touching the floor) but it has thrown up the weakness/instability in my left shoulder doing a military press. BTW why is it so much harder to do a military press when squatting than when standing?.

Can do a full set with 8.5kg (without cheating) now. How much do I need to be doing to climb 8c ?

[Serpico]

BTW why is it so much harder to do a military press when squatting than when standing?.

Standing you can lean back slightly so that it becomes more like an incline bench press, using more pecs, in the bottom squat position you're actually leaning forward slightly, so it really tests shoulder flexibility as well.

Can do a full set with 8.5kg (without cheating) now. How much do I need to be doing to climb 8c ?

9.5kg, less for Unjustified.

[douglas]

Technique is easy, strength is harder to come by.

Typically it's been my experience that people who say that don't understand the difference between technique and skill in climbing and just how much of an impact it makes on performance compared to strength which takes far less time to acquire.

Sounds like you're right. What is the difference between technique and skill? Technique can be learnt but skill cannot?

[Serpico]

Sounds like you're right. What is the difference between technique and skill?

Technique implies that you know how to do a drop knee, or a heel hook, or how to place your foot on a hold. Skill is about knowing when those techniques are appropriate, but even more about body positioning, movement initiation, movement efficiency, and a whole host of other subtle factors.
As an example: I've had a symmetrical training board for years, for every hold there's an identical hold in the same relative position on the opposite side of the board, so for every problem I make up there's an exact mirror image version. I had a revelation on the board a few years ago - I couldn't hold a small crimp with my right hand, nothing unusual about that, most people's explanation would be that they weren't strong enough, but I had already done the the exact same move using the same [relative] holds using my weaker left hand. I had to go back to the left hand version to figure out what the difference was - which was shifting my hips just 2" to the right. As soon as I did that I did the move.
In the years since I've consistently found that I have better body awareness when moving off my left hand than off my [stronger] right; moves, foot choice and body positioning that are intuitive when moving off my left hand are often substituted by brute force (or failure) when moving off the exact same holds with my right hand. Obviously most people don't have access to that sort of L-R comparison, but it seems that it's not enough to just learn a 'technique' or skill you have to learn it and perfect it in every situation.

Technique can be learnt but skill cannot?

Both can be learnt but skill takes longer. It's reckoned that reach expert level in a field (sport, playing an instrument, etc...) takes around 10,000 hours of practice. If you consider the amount of time spent actually on the rock whilst out or at the wall (which may only add up to ~20mins or less), how close to that 10k hrs are you?

[SA Chris]

I think technique is learing how to do something. Skill is learning to be able to do that thing well.

[douglas]

how close to that 10k hrs are you?

Not close at all! Less than 5 % I would guess. I concede that perhaps technique / skill is not easy, but strength isn't either. Not for me anyway. Really interesting about the one sided movement thing, I always wear through my right toe first...

[shark]

Really interesting about the one sided movement thing, I always wear through my right toe first...

It's more likely that your right foot is bigger

[SA Chris]

Or that you have one foot taking your weight /  kicking off when lowering off at the wall /crag. I noticed I do that and think it must add a lot of wear and tear to that shoe.

[TobyD]

Really interesting about the one sided movement thing, I always wear through my right toe first...

It's more likely that your right foot is bigger

although i believe most people's bigger foot is their left?  anyway  apologies.

I'm with Serpico on this one (i think) ... climbing is more of a skill / movement based activity than one of strength IMHO, except in a few situations. Dawes once made an astute comment about the endless training of power being like putting an F1 engine in a mini, it'd just skid and wouldn't corner .... it's the skillful application of the power that you have which really reaps rewards. Though obviously if you have wad loads of both, you're in. Or rather, if you have wad loads of both, you're Adam Ondra.

[heelhookofglory]

Totally agree that both are important.

Since I started climbing I've always championed technique / skill (what ever you want to call it) and focused pretty much exclusively on that -- at least with regards to actual intention. I've only recently started focusing on strength training and it is already paying off. Some holds which I simply couldn't hold before are getting much more within my grasp. Yes, body positioning is very important but there is a point where your fingers are either strong enough or aren't strong enough to hold a certain hold, no matter what position your body is in.

That's what I think at the moment, anyway, but then I'm still learning...

[ghisino]

Dawes once made an astute comment about the endless training of power being like putting an F1 engine in a mini, it'd just skid and wouldn't corner .... it's the skillful application of the power that you have which really reaps rewards.

I've been thinking the same for years but some experiences slightly changed my mind.

the most shocking came when i started training the front lever, not really expecting any performance gain out of it (it was more of an injury rehab story, but thats another story)

Well, before the front lever i was pretty shit at some angles. I would climb well on vertical-ish stuff, get away with "creativity" on roofs, and suck at 45° and around. A truly huge performance gap, indoors and outside too.

What i noticed as i progressed towards the lever was how my footwork on 45° stuff was improving faster than my imagination. I was doing things that i simply didn't consider as possible before, and it was "technical" stuff, all about "pulling" with my feet and being "precise"!!!

What i mean with this small story it that at least on some angles there is a minimum requirement of strenght below which you won't really "skillfully apply" anything.

It is true that a F1 engine in a mini is not a game changer, but it is also true that putting motoGP tyres on a bicycle won't get you anywhere.

[Oldmanmatt]

?????
Sorry, I mean,
?????!!
I seem to get a good balance to my wall/campus/finger board training, by finishing off each session with:-

30x Press ups (Normal, flat palmed, shoulder width spacing)
60x crunches
60x leg raises (prone)
60x cross over crunches
60x reverse leg raises (on all fours, 60 on each leg)
60x "Dog legs" (on all fours, knee bent, cock leg, 60 on each leg)

Nary a weight to be seen...

Takes about 10 min and seems to address all those opposing muscles that the wall neglects...

Still get laughed at by the other denizens of the wall.

They don't do these things in Devon...

[Oldmanmatt]

Actually, if I think about it; 30 years of climbing bring me to the following conclusion:-

Strength without skill= pointless
Skill without strength= limited performance
Skill comes with training, practice, observation, visualisation and dedication. It is hard won.
Strength comes with training, practice......... all the same things really. It too is hard won.

Different people will be naturally inclined to be "good" at some aspects of both skill and strength and "weak" in others and so a training regime will be a very personal thing; developed by trial and error over time (if you do it yourself).
I'm pretty strong, but I'm often outclassed by other climbers who seem to move their body in ways that just didn't occur to me...