[csurfleet]

After doing my first sport 7a in Turkey a couple of weeks back (YYFY!) I'm wanting to really push to achieve my years sport aim - 7b redpoint. I'm in El Chorro for a week in November so figure that will be a good opportunity.

I'm after advice on both training and route recommendations I found that 4x4s on V3 and getting to the point of doing v4 in a couple of goes (indoors) pushed me nicely from 6b+ to 7a, what sort of level should I be looking for to have a decent go at doing a mid-length steep 7b? Shouldn't be too much trouble to push to 4x4s on V4 but I'm aware that a summer of trad makes for a weak climber haha. Don't tend to train on indoor routes much but willing to give it a blast if its going to really help.

Also, any recommendations for good routes to have a crack at? On Frontales if poss so I'm not dragging partners out through the gorge for days on end. Would prefer steeper routes on good holds, and anything that suits a lanky sod is well appreciated.

Ta guys 

[clgladiator]

As much as it pains me to say this; the way I found most effective to move through the sports grades last summer was consolidation and time on rock. I did 10 of each letter grade (+'s dont count) before moving onto the next one.
If you're strong enough for the grade which i might suggest you could be, dont think ive done many 7b's with anyting much harder than 6B on them then it might work for you as well.

[SA Chris]

I found that 4x4s on V3 and getting to the point of doing v4 in a couple of goes (indoors) pushed me nicely from 6b+ to 7a, what sort of level should I be looking for to have a decent go at doing a mid-length steep 7b? Shouldn't be too much trouble to push to 4x4s on V4 but I'm aware that a summer of trad makes for a weak climber haha. Don't tend to train on indoor routes much but willing to give it a blast if its going to really help.

I think you are making a bit of an assumption  that what bouldering training you did pushed you from 6b+ to 7a, and that similar but harder boulder training will yield further results.

What you need to do is have a look at where your weaknesses lie and work on them. No good if you can do hard boulder problem cruxes several times in a row if you are on an endurance or power endurance route, and there's nothing in the tank. Training on routes for doing routes seems like a logical approach to me.

[csurfleet]

Problem for me is that I won't be getting a huge amount of sport done over the summer. One day trip a month is likely as all my partners are die-hard tradders. Not a huge issue for me as I'm happy on the trad too, just trying to get an idea of the fitness level I need to get to so I'm in with a chance when the winter season rolls around again.

As far as routes training goes, I've got access to circuit boards at the local walls, so I'll play around with things longer than 25 moves and see if I die!

If it looks like I'm already strong enough then I guess I need to work more on the tactics side of things on those days I get on the bolts, aim for swifter 7a redpoints (or onsights) rather than grade pushing, hopefully then I'll be in a position to push swiftly through 7a+ to 7b in a 7 day intensive period.

[Drew]

I am inclined to agree with what the other two, but on the "work on your weaknesses" front, don't forget that you've got certain strengths, and if you find a route which plays to them, then don't feel guilty. If you're training to become a better overall climber, that's fine, but if you find a route when you're there which fits you perfectly, go for it.

[IanP]

I found that 4x4s on V3 and getting to the point of doing v4 in a couple of goes (indoors) pushed me nicely from 6b+ to 7a, what sort of level should I be looking for to have a decent go at doing a mid-length steep 7b? Shouldn't be too much trouble to push to 4x4s on V4 but I'm aware that a summer of trad makes for a weak climber haha. Don't tend to train on indoor routes much but willing to give it a blast if its going to really help.

I think you are making a bit of an assumption  that what bouldering training you did pushed you from 6b+ to 7a, and that similar but harder boulder training will yield further results.

What you need to do is have a look at where your weaknesses lie and work on them. No good if you can do hard boulder problem cruxes several times in a row if you are on an endurance or power endurance route, and there's nothing in the tank. Training on routes for doing routes seems like a logical approach to me.

I'm not sure I'd necessarily agree completely - a lot of people seem to get pretty good results without doing significant indoor training on routes, p/e and stamina traing can be done on boulder problems using 4x4s, circuits etc.  Looking at your level indoors is always difficult since it depends on the grading at the wall and the length of the problems but assuming relatively fair grading and decent length of problems 4x4 on V4 sounds like more than enough for 7b.  I did a bit of expermentation with 4x4 and 5x4 at manchester bouldering this winter and could manage with mix of V3 - V5 problems on the comp wall, 6 - 10 moves, possibly quite tough grades for indoors (I hope  .  On recent trip to Spain I managed 7b o/s and 7b+ 2nd go. 

Getting some more sport climbing in would definitely help as well, also one of the best things you can do for improving you trad grade (particular if you trad aims are big stamina ptches rather than grit).

[SA Chris]

What I was trying to say was it is a bit of an assumption that if you do a certain type of training and get result x, doing the same type of training +1 will not necessarily get you previous result +1.

[csurfleet]

Some brill stuff here guys thanks 

I definitely know what I want from sport climbing, I'm not interested in the slightest in limestone slabs! Give me stuff the proper side of vertical every time and I'll be happy so I'm aiming the training squarely at that. Your point about changing things up is good Chris and I'll try and increase the number of moves at my current level I can get through.

I guess if I aim to get up to 4x4@V4 and 6x4@V3 that should cover me nicely for required fitness, without requireing a belay partner, and gives me goals to aim for. Should also help with results for trad over the summer too. I can use the time I manage on sport to assess progress, i.e. if I'm still taking 3 redpoints to get up 7a's by July I'm probably missing something.

[Dexter]

dont sell short some pure power gains too, although you will mostly be want power endurance and endurance there will be some routes that require a fair bit of power. Also I find that if you are stronger than necessary sometimes it allows you to have more left in the tank as you haven't need to pull as hard on some moves. For this  would recommend aroung 1 session in 3 or so trying to work a problem at your limit.
Note: I dont do much sport and mainly boulder so this could be complete crap

[jwi]

dont sell short some pure power gains too, although you will mostly be want power endurance and endurance there will be some routes that require a fair bit of power.

I've done 7bs with moves no harder than fb 4B, and a few that had fb 7A moves.  By choosing the first kind bouldering level is totally irrelevant, by choosing the second kind bouldering level is all that matters.

[Rocksteady]

Good thread for someone like me who is stuck at a similar level to the OP.

I'd just say that stepping up a boulder 4x4 from 4 V3s to 4 V4s is actually massively hard unless you have the requisite boulder strength - or at least, it is at my wall. I'll flash the V3s then get shut down by V4s - some won't even go after extensive working.

For reliable progress in the time frame you want I'd go with a combination of (1) building additional strength for those cruxes (i.e. pushing your boulder grade) and (2) keeping the 4x4 going at V3 (maintaining current level) while working on getting to V4,V3,V3,V3 and then building the V4 proportion... and (3) pick a 7b that suits you.

[csurfleet]

That makes total sense Rocksteady, I'll be working upto a 4x4@V4 gradually in the way you describe. I seem to be more balanced out than you with the max bouldering though, I get V3 first try mostly, V4 within a couple of goes and V5 either takes a bit of working or doesn't go at all (seems consistent across Depot/Rockover/Rokt), are you sure there isn't just a big gap in the grading at your wall?

[ksjs]

You are well strong enough to do 7a/+/b either onsight or quick redpoint. I first tried 4x4s in winter 2010 and managed my first 8as last summer - doing the 4x4s at a not dissimilar level to what you're talking about (I was doing them on V3s and V4s, I think I managed 2 x V3 and 2 x V4 in a rep at my max and these may have been a bit harder as the place undergrades) didn't feel a million miles away from that required for 8a which is probably about right i.e. much less is enough for 7a-b (no harm in a bit extra in the tank though). Given the time lag between the training and actually redpointing the routes I'm unconvinced that there was a definite link however; if I was you I'd really be focusing on getting your route fitness and route reading skills up whilst maintaining strength - time on rock is key.

I think I onsighted my first 7b ever at El Chorro: Anack Sunamun at Frontales, very cool and varied route, 3* all the way. Also, really worth getting to grips with UK sport more as it can often seem significantly harder than continental counterparts, 7a onsight abroad does not 7a onsight in the UK make.

[Muenchener]

7a onsight abroad does not 7a onsight in the UK make.

Is that just that UK grade are old-skool and tough, or is it a style thing - confusing sea of minging crimps vs. clear moves on obvious holds?

I'm sure people are better trained for the latter these days. Partly because it's inherent to the nature of climbing on plastic; partly, I suspect,  because wall managers / route setters are increasingly reluctant to set anything properly fingery for fear of hurting people. On nearly all my local walls, hard routes/problems are tending more & more to consist of rounded/slopy/body tensiony moves on big blobs - which is indeed one style of climbing, and fun in its way, but almost completely irrelevant to choosing & using UK limestone crimps.

[csurfleet]

Funnily enough, I was looking at Anack Sunamun in the guide last night and figured it would be a good one to go at. Pretty long compared to what I'm used to so route fitness is definitely what I'll be concentrating on later in the summer.

Based on what everyones been saying here though I figure I can concentrate on trad for the next 3 months or so (still with a monthly sport trip) to realise the gains I've got from a winter of indoors and sport. A session or two a week indoors should keep me at a similar fitness level, then get back on the 4x4s in earnest and persuade my partners to get on the lime more towards the end of the summer to be ready for the winter sport attack with slightly more strength, quite a bit more fitness and much better rock skills 

Right, I'm off to go write out a training plan 

[ShortRound]

If you’re that keen for sport 7b and live in Yorkshire/Lancashire (judging by your indoor walls) then find some partners for Malham/Kilnsey on here. I’ve only done 1 7b at Malham and it isn’t very long so should suit someone with a bouldering background. An important aspect of going from 7a to 7b for me was just getting on the routes and not being intimidated by the grade. Being used to trad you might be surprised by how much redpointing brings routes down to your level.

Let me know if you need a partner for Yorkshire Limestone as I try to get up there quite regularly.

[csurfleet]

Awesome, will do

[ksjs]

7a onsight abroad does not 7a onsight in the UK make.

Is that just that UK grade are old-skool and tough, or is it a style thing - confusing sea of minging crimps vs. clear moves on obvious holds?

I think UK grades feel harder because of a mix of the above i.e. harder to read, often more technical and I think there is an historic tendency to undergrade. I also reckon it's easier to acquire stamina (ideal for long limestone routes with good holds) than it is technique and power. This is all pretty subjective though. I'd be very interested to see a survey of people's (who've climbed a decent amount in Europe and the UK) best onsight grades, I'm pretty sure you'd see a majority with their best performances being abroad?

[ksjs]

Funnily enough, I was looking at Anack Sunamun in the guide last night and figured it would be a good one to go at.

The climbing is brilliant: great position, perfect rock, cool moves, keeps going to the end, not cruxy (slightly harder bit in the middle but I think I was only getting into falling at that stage and felt a bit exposed at that point so it may have made things feel a bit tougher).

Sara 7a+ on Encantadas is ace too and I really enjoyed Viejo Traidor 7b+ (polished but still great) in Poema de Roca. Another really good 7a+/b to try and onsight is Las Loi Laufen at Makinodromo (amazing crag - bit of a trek but totally worth it).

Good luck with the training!

[Falling Down]

I also reckon it's easier to acquire stamina (ideal for long limestone routes with good holds) than it is technique and power.

Total opposite for me...

[Muenchener]

7a onsight abroad does not 7a onsight in the UK make.

Is that just that UK grade are old-skool and tough, or is it a style thing - confusing sea of minging crimps vs. clear moves on obvious holds?

I think UK grades feel harder because of a mix of the above i.e. harder to read, often more technical and I think there is an historic tendency to undergrade. ...
I'd be very interested to see a survey of people's (who've climbed a decent amount in Europe and the UK) best onsight grades

My sport climbing career to date certainly doesn't amount to "a decent amount", but my two 6c onsights were one in El Chorro and one at Castle Inn.

Another factor occurs to me: could it be that at your local crag(s), you've got nothing left to onsight because you've already redpointed all the good stuff?

(Sorry to be dragging the thread  btw. I am in fact following it out of interest and in the hope of gems that will help me in my current quest to get from 6a to 6b)