[Andy F]

Having read today's posts.....I think Dead Calm is 8a (be it a soft one). Most people who reckoned it was 7c+ went left at the top and leapt for the comedy carabina and most people, myself included, who finished on the right and clipped the chain from a finishing hold thought it to be 8a (obviously the righteous path).

It’s a recent addition and if most people prefer to do it by going left at the top and grabbing the belay (didn’t the FA also grab the belay, admittedly when it had an awkwardly small karabiner on it) then maybe that’s what it should be graded for.   

Dead Calm is better finished by going right and clipping the belay from the big hold next to the chains, at soft 8a. AFAIK the comedy carabiner (which was almost big enough to jump through) has been replaced by something small smaller.

[Serpico]

Dead Calm is better finished by going right and clipping the belay from the big hold next to the chains, at soft 8a.

That's a bit harsh Andy, I've looked up 'Farnell soft 8a' and it's equivalent to Fr7c, Dead Calm is definitely no easier than Fr7c+.

[The Aaronator]

FB - Font grade

F - French sport grades

AF - Andy Farnell grades

[Probes]

...

Ae - Aaron Egyption grades


Ill stick up for you andy

 

[Andy F]

AF - Andy Farnell grades, Accurate Fucking grades...   

[The Aaronator]

trad_grade_safe by pratt2005, on Flickr

[Andy F]

trad_grade_safe by pratt2005, on Flickr

Looks just about perfect. Have a wad point for accuracy 

[Jaspersharpe]

Wow. Does that mean Adam Ondra has onsighted E10? What a hero, that must be even harder than Indian Face.

[DaveC]

You've managed to work Indian Face into a thread about Kilnsey & Malham grades!  I wouldn't have thought that was possible but there you go. 

[Jaspersharpe]

I just applied the Godwin's Law of UKC.

[Falling Down]

You Nazi

[Kingy]

IMO the grade of a pitch is an absolute measure, albeit it will feel different for ppl of different reaches/build. The onsightability of a pitch should not affect the difficulty of that pitch as quite simply, the difficulty does not change whether you are onsighting it or redpointing it (ie. the minimum required energy exertion to get up it without falling.) It will obviously feel desparate on an onsight relative to a well-practised redpoint or repeat ascent but by the same token, so will a 6a feel piss to a 7c climber.....the 6a is still 6a, not 5+.

The onsightability of a pitch is a different thing entirely and reflective of different styles i.e. steep tufas are more readable than desparate crimpy slabs...go figure. Just because something is not easily readable and rarely onsighted is not enough to make it harder in difficulty terms than a pumpfest on jugs at the same grade where you can easily see all the holds. Maybe the latter route would be desparate for a good UK onsighter with no fitness on overhanging rocks. I reckon part of the deal in Spain is being fit and if you are then you deserve to get a bunch of good onsights. Here in the UK, familiarity with less readable rock is a learnable skill just as getting fit can be achieved if you put the hours in.

BTW, Zoolook 8a and GBH soft 8a+ but only going direct on the crux 

[The Sausage]

8a

[The Aaronator]

AF8a+!

[Adam Lincoln]

Ok, at the moment then the main ones seem to be

NAT at Malham. Thoughts with this one are that it goes in at 7c+ but mention that it was originally climbed at 8a going direct at the top without moving left into top of Obsession.

Soft Option. I have had a few emails regarding this. People seem to think something has come off higher up since it got done originally. What are peoples thoughts on this who have done it. Grade wise?

Main overhang. Since loss of hold some people think its harder. Again, borderline 7c+/8a

Toadal recall. Another borderline 7c+/8a.

With all these borderline routes coming up, is it time we introduced a slash grade into guidebooks?

[JohnM]

I'll vote 7c+ for Main Overhang.  It's got a hard pull of a small sharp crimp on the crux IIRC but not quite hard enough or sustained enough overall to warrant 8a IMO.

[Teaboy]

NAT at Malham. Thoughts with this one are that it goes in at 7c+ but mention that it was originally climbed at 8a going direct at the top without moving left into top of Obsession.

By top do you mean middle?

Also, is the reason Vogue never gets a mention becuase no one does it or because everyone who does feels happy with 7c+?

[Adam Lincoln]

By top do you mean middle?

Middle to top'ish 

[north_country_boy]

With all these borderline routes coming up, is it time we introduced a slash grade into guidebooks?

A thousand times No.

Rodellar is testament to how split grades are pointless...go with the majority consensus.

Whats wrong with the route description providing hints to whether its soft or hard for the grade. There is way too much subjectivity to grades to start doing this......

[Serpico]

Also, is the reason Vogue never gets a mention becuase no one does it or because everyone who does feels happy with 7c+?

The latter. Hard 7c+ for shorties, steady for lanksters, two totally different sequences.

[Adam Lincoln]

With all these borderline routes coming up, is it time we introduced a slash grade into guidebooks?

A thousand times No.

Rodellar is testament to how split grades are pointless...go with the majority consensus.

Whats wrong with the route description providing hints to whether its soft or hard for the grade. There is way too much subjectivity to grades to start doing this......

Only a suggestion! With that sorted then, majority votes it is then. Ill try and set up some votes via the mods.

[Teaboy]

Sorry, wasn't tryingto be pedantic just wondering if I could finish up Obsession and still claim the tick
 

[Andy F]

Ok, at the moment then the main ones seem to be

NAT at Malham. Thoughts with this one are that it goes in at 7c+ but mention that it was originally climbed at 8a going direct at the top without moving left into top of Obsession.

7c+

Soft Option. I have had a few emails regarding this. People seem to think something has come off higher up since it got done originally. What are peoples thoughts on this who have done it. Grade wise?

8a

Main overhang. Since loss of hold some people think its harder. Again, borderline 7c+/8a

Felt 8a when I did it, but apparently there is an easier sequence using some holds to the left.

Toadal recall. Another borderline 7c+/8a.

Been 8a since it was done 20+ years ago, no-one has mentioned a downgrade before

With all these borderline routes coming up, is it time we introduced a slash grade into guidebooks?

[fatdoc]

20+ years... fuck me... in my mind it  was new route in terms of the history of sport climbing at the cove.


yet another addition to the "you know you are getting old when" thread....

BTW, it was 8a when I did it IMO, & not my style of malham climbing... so felt right for the grade. no doubt it's a different route now.

[Jaspersharpe]