[ianv]

How much do they stretch nowadays?

Getting back into climbing after a long lay off and currently climbing in old ninjas (4.5's normal shoe size 7). I am going to need something new soon so ball park, what size should I be looking at. Do boots still stretch as much as they used to?

Also initially most of my training will be on wood and resin, ideally would like a slipper type shoe. Any recommendations? are boreal any good these days? as I always had a soft spot for them back in the day.

[tomtom]

How long is a piece of string!?

Different brands stretch different amounts, different shoes same brand stretch different amounts! I'm a 9 and my 5:10 Anasazi Velcro's are 7.5's and my 5:10 dragons are 9.5's!!
Boreal still make good shoes, but I find the 5:10 rubber is better and lasts longer.

If you're gettin back into it again I'd go for something tight but vaguely comfy and assume it will stretch a bit. I re-started climbing c.5 years ago and all my prior brand/shoe experience was redundant.. Might be a case of not getting it spot on first time. Sportiva shoes are good too, but I find mad rock are wack. I've a £30 pair to shred at the wall and the rubber is pants.

If heyre for the wall/general use I'd avoid something with either a stiff sole or very downturned toe.. Velcro closures make em quick to get on and off..

Hope that helps some...

(carrying on from Jims point below, lined shoes tend to stretch less than unlined. Leather tends to stretch a bit more than 5:10's 'cowdura' vegan non leather leather look alike.. (in my brief experience). Oh, and 5:10's have notoriously shite sizing control, so there may well be 1/2 size difference between identially sized shoes...

[Jim]

boreals are ok for training indoors in.
with regards to stretch it varies from shoe to shoe and mostly depends on the materials used and the construction.

[Simon Brown]

Okay... It's not a punter question. A punter wouldn't have asked it.

I work in CragX at the Foundry so here's what we generally advise for someone like yourself.

All shoes stretch. Generally unlined leather stretches most, then lined leather, then synthetics.

All the rubbers are good these days. Their durability depends on your footwork, what you're climbing on, how often you climb and whether you keep the rubber clean.

The fit of a shoe is the key factor. Returning to climbing as you are, probably go for an all round shoe. Boreal Joker velcro, Scarpa Force or FiveTen Moccasym are good places to start. A snug fit with your toes slightly curled and no obvious pressure points is what you're after. Once you're climbing regularly again then consider something more agressive such as the popular but horrid Anasazi velcro (I know, but they don't suit my feet), Boreal Crux, Scarpa Mago or similar.

Buy the shoe that feels right for you; not the one your mate or a salesman says is best. They don't have your feet.

If you can, come and see us. If not, got to another specialist shop where you can try the shoes; they're a hand made product so size and shape do vary slightly. Give yourself plenty of time to try different models/sizes.

Oh, the final and big thing. Remember climbing is fun and Action Direct was climbed in hightop Boreals with socks.

[Andy F]

Any recommendations? are boreal any good these days? as I always had a soft spot for them back in the day.

My recommendation is to stay well away from Boreal. Back in the day Boreal ruled, now 5.10/Scarpa/Evolv are a much better bet.

[ianv]

Oh, the final and big thing. Remember climbing is fun and Action Direct was climbed in hightop Boreals with socks.

Yeh but Gullich had the worst footwork ever!, so anything that wouldn't hurt his toes as he dragged his feet behind him would has sufficed.

[dave]

The fit of a shoe is the key factor. Returning to climbing as you are, probably go for an all round shoe. Boreal Joker velcro, Scarpa Force or FiveTen Moccasym are good places to start.

I had some moccasyms when I first started. They were fucking terrible - no stiffness at all, and when you start your foot is pretty weak so they were shit on standing on anything remotely small.

I also used to swear by boreals because they had the best fit for my foot, and I always bought the line that the fit was the most important thing. I had about 5 or 6 pairs over the first few years of my climbing. However then I one day realised that you shoehorn your feet into whichever model of fivetens fits you the least worst and suddenly you're two grade better at climbing. The sad fact is rubber beats fit 6 days out of the week, especially for bouldering. For that reason I wouldn't recommend boreals as a serious bouldering shoe, but they are good to start with, if you start with fiveten you'll never appreciate the difference.

And before someone says "but jerry/ben/jacky/whoever did XXX route in boreals" remember that the boreal rubber back in the day is different from now, reputedly a lot softer back then, I think they made the rubber harder for better sport limestone edgeing and euro pocket toepoking.

[Adam Lincoln]

And before someone says "but jerry/ben/jacky/whoever did XXX route in boreals"

Didn't they just resole in fiveten rubber? Or was that a myth?

[dave]

I heard stu had some resoled (again, could be an urban myth), but in boreal's heyday it was before fivetens were on the scene.

[ianv]

Just been looking at some of the recommendations above, HOW MUCH!!!. I thought cycling gear was expensive but some of the boot prices are really taking the piss.

My home board has now been built and I do not intend to climb outside till 1. I have regained a bit of finger strength 2. The weather is half decent. I do not need super high performance rubber or the best possible boots, I climbed everything in ninjas before and was happy in them. I am looking for something that is reasonably comfy, works ok on resin holds and will not cost an arm and a leg. any suggestions?

[slackline]

You've made the fallacy of equating absolute cost to value when it should be cost / mileage on rock.  As mentioned in another thread recently the mileage and usage you get out of a pair is exceptionally good value for money (providing you don't have really shit footwork and don't walk too and from the crag in your boots).  As also highlighted in that thread you'd spend more on fuel getting to/from the crag (if you decide to leave your home board).

[Bubba]

I think Ian is just after a pair of cheap training shoes for board use. I suspect when he gets back outside he can then worry about something better.

Ian may have titled his topic "proper punter question" but he's by no stretch of the imagination a punter, having previously climbed at a level which at the time was close to the best. Hope you don't me outing you Ian

[Falling Down]

Skinny? 

[Bubba]

Well he wasn't fat, that's for sure

[tomtom]

Ian, if you're after a pair just for the board, get to Decathlon and pick up a pair for £20.. On special at the moment. Failing that pick up a pair cheap online that are not 'premium' boots and get some good uns when you're back on form...

[ianv]

So should I buy boots snug, tight or cripplingly tight? Do boots stretch as much as they used to?

As bubba said I did have an idea once, but I am massively out of the loop regarding modern brands/boots due to a near 20 year lay off.

[Paul B]

it depends, boots with a lot of rubber over the toe box don't really stretch all that much.

I'd be looking at the tighter end of snug for everything other than an all day trad boot.

[T_B]

Rock and Run are selling some Mad Rock and red Chili shoes for £36 - £38. Should be fine for indoors, though I guess the problem is knowing what size you are.

http://www.rockrun.com/categories/Footwear/Rock-Shoes/All%252dDay/

I think it's fair to say that modern boots don't stretch as much as old unlined leather ones. Boots tend to be stiffer, so don't have to be worn as cripplingly tight.

WRT Boreal. The only people I know who wear Boreal are sponsored by them.

[wiain]

So should I buy boots snug, tight or cripplingly tight? Do boots stretch as much as they used to?

Trouble is, those are subjective terms. Crippingly tight is a no no. Shoes don't stretch anything like as much as you probably remember Ninjas stretching. My anasazis have gained almost exactly 2mm of width from new to properly broken in. IIRC that's half a UK width fitting. To me, and to most experienced climbers, that feels like a lot of stretch, but the punter you are apparently only pretending to be might not notice it.
Sizes vary. If you work out you need 6.5 in FiveTen, you will probably be 6 (or 39) in LaSportiva, probably 7.5 in boreal, 6-6.5 (39.5) in Scarpa. Evovl size fairly consistently with FiveTen.
HTH, Iain

[Jaspersharpe]

Hi Ian 

I had about 12 years off and when I started back I just got a pair of cheap things from Decathlon for <£40. Thing is, to start with you'll make such massive gains that you wont notice your shoes holding you back and if you're just training on a wall / board then something cheap and crap will be fine for now.

It was only when I started going out more after a few months that I realised how wank the shoes actually were and bought some decent ones. Whatever anyone says, good shoes nowadays are way better than anything you'll have used previously and feel like cheating in comparison to Ninjas / Lasers / Asolos etc.

As far as sizing is concerned, I've found that (in general) they don't stretch nearly as much as old skool shoes. It's certainly no longer a case of cramming your feet into the tiniest ones you can and waiting for them to stretch two and a half sizes. A size or size and a half is generally enough.

[tomtom]

It's certainly no longer a case of cramming your feet into the tiniest ones you can and waiting for them to stretch two and a half sizes. A size or size and a half is generally enough.

Wuss 

[Jaspersharpe]

It's certainly no longer a case of cramming your feet into the tiniest ones you can and waiting for them to stretch two and a half sizes. A size or size and a half is generally enough.

Wuss 

Shut up you dick. 

I used to wear size 5 in old skool shoes (even managed to go down to 4 1/2 once). Now 6 1/2 is generally about right. I take an 8 in normal shoes. As mentioned they just don't stretch nearly as much.

[Paul B]

I don't buy into the 'lets use shit boots indoors' mentality. How can you make productive use of your time if your feet are all over the place (*more than usual) because of sloppy/poppy shoes?

[Jim]

I wear boreal mutants indoors and they are great for that. they are crap for outdoor use (gritstone & sandstone)

[Jaspersharpe]

I don't buy into the 'lets use shit boots indoors' mentality. How can you make productive use of your time if your feet are all over the place (*more than usual) because of sloppy/poppy shoes?

I don't either but the question is one of coming back from a long layoff, and therefore different.

[tomtom]

I don't buy into the 'lets use shit boots indoors' mentality. How can you make productive use of your time if your feet are all over the place (*more than usual) because of sloppy/poppy shoes?

Because most of the time at walls for me is about volume rather than something specific/technical. Also wall holds are generally larger/more defined/actually there compared to grit for example..
I have a pair of mad rocks for the wall, and if I find my feet are popping off holds on trickier problems, I just go and put my better boots on...

 

Your feet are not 'just al over the place' on everything because you've got average boots on!

[ianv]

To be fair, you dont need ultimate friction on a wall, most holds are pretty positive so as long as the boots stick ok they will do their job. I was also never into the less than vertical side of climbing and dont expect that to change too much so again ultimate friction no biggie. 

[Paul B]

Your feet are not 'just al over the place' on everything because you've got average boots on!

Tell that to the beastmaker board.

[Richie Crouch]

I agree with Paul. If I am indoors training to improve 'technique' or board angle strength on terrible footholds it helps to practice using footwear similar to that which you would use outside, to groove the techniques required and not cutting loose as often..etc

[mrjonathanr]

Hi Ian I suspect I recognise you from years ago, seemed to like Malham IIRC.
I suspect you've got your answer by now but personally I'd just get your feet into the smallest size you physically can with plastic bags etc then go up a half size for performance or a whole size for a more comfortable fit. Boots mostly don't stretch half as much old Boreals did, but almost always improve a half size from new.

[Muenchener]

I don't buy into the 'lets use shit boots indoors' mentality. How can you make productive use of your time if your feet are all over the place (*more than usual) because of sloppy/poppy shoes?

You're in good company: Big Ron was sternly critical of the "let's use old/trashed EBs for brick edge cruising" mentality in Fawcett On Rock.

A long time ago now, but plus ca change ...

[Jaspersharpe]

Your feet are not 'just al over the place' on everything because you've got average boots on!

Tell that to the beastmaker board.

Word.