[rodma]

I've seen brits in font poffing their hands on a wee problem at valee de la mee (on a 6c+ thing).

The offending chaps succeeded on the problem (if you consider that using pof to increase friction as a success) and declared it path. I was obviously outraged, but not so much as to actually say anything (I am British after all). I was more surprised that they had to borrow my brush on a stick, since they didn't even have a toothbrush with them to clean the holds, but did have an impressive pof-rag. 

I certainly used to use pof many moons ago, but after being re-educated stopped using it entirely. I was only re-educated when someone told me that they had managed all of the classics at Cuvier sans le pof, even the supposedly fucked problems which were the reason for me starting to use it in the fist place. It's funny how friendly advice evolves as attitudes change.

Don't use it, just clean and squeak your shoes thoroughly, prior to each attempt on the problem.

[a dense loner]

the pinch hold on mandarin has been poffed to death over the past year, it now has a black sheen under all the chalk. effectively we're talking can you hold the black sheen instead of the once lovely pinch just above the nose. this is at eye level and is there for all to see. pof is not good, don't get me wrong in a different time it was fuckin superb

[Johnny Brown]

Ah, finally, thanks to the man in the forest for a specific example!

I climb at Font on a weekly basis, I have done most of the low level circuits in the forest and I find the evidence for damaged rock caused by pof to be exaggerated. I have seen people credit damage to rock to pof that in my completely unscientific opinion is polish caused by generations of climbers. I also believe the level of damage is exaggerated by people as an excuse to misuse chalk.

Apart from the weekly bit sadly, this has been my experience. I'm not denying pof can have a negative effect on holds, I'm just saying I've never encountered it. I've certainly never bypassed or stopped trying a problem because of such 'damage'.

On the other hand, erosion is a big problem, I think we can agree. Just to be clear, I'm not suggesting pof use is therefore no big deal and not worth worrying about. Not am I saying folk should rush out and buy pof. What I'm saying is:

a) There is at least a chance that pof helps prolong the life of holds. Given the lack of SCIENCE on the subject, I'm prepared to keep an open mind on that.

b) I hear lots of debate about how pof is so terrible, but not about cleaning boots. The old bleausards tend to be obsessive about both. Judging by the number of british climbers I see with pads covered in sand, I think there maybe something we can learn from them.

c) The locals in font have a pretty clear statement about pof vs chalk here: http://bleau.info/cleanup/magnesium.html
I still think its pretty arrogant to dismiss it as the ramblings of the misinformed, or to assume we know better. Its their forest after all. They've been bouldering intensively there for a lot longer than we or anyone else have, and all said the place is not in bad shape.

Andy, if that's still not satisfied you maybe remember that if you want to construct a cogent argument going ad hominem is generally to be avoided. If that's still not enough, try Romans 2:1 or Luke 6:42.

[SA Chris]

the reason for me starting to use it in the fist place.

I hate to think where that might be. And why.

[slackline]

I still think its pretty arrogant to dismiss it as the ramblings of the misinformed, or to assume we know better. Its their forest after all. They've been bouldering intensively there for a lot longer than we or anyone else have, and all said the place is not in bad shape.

I don't think there's any better knowledge held by the bleusards.  They use pof over chalk because of a historical artefact defined by the geographical location and the fact that the forest is full of lovely pine trees exuding resin and the nearest magnesium carbonate mine is....?

Also my understanding is that it was Gill on the other side of the Atlantic who started using gymastic chalk whilst bouldering, it hadn't even occurred to the bleusards as they already had a solution using local, readily available and sustainable resources (regardless of the effect it had on the rock).

[Andy B]

Andy, if that's still not satisfied you maybe remember that if you want to construct a cogent argument going ad hominem is generally to be avoided. If that's still not enough, try Romans 2:1 or Luke 6:42.

Thanks for that Adam, but it seems strange to advise against ad hominem argument then immediately follow that with obtuse insults.

You still haven't responded to the counter points offered to your previous posts.

Also, given that you think it's arrogant to tell bleasards they are wrong, how do you justify using chalk in font?

[rodma]

the reason for me starting to use it in the fist place.

I hate to think where that might be. And why.

Unfortunately on Charcuterie. I was told (and believed, for why would I question those more worthy than myself) that it was impossible without it, due to the highly polished footholds (how did they get like that  )

[SA Chris]

I was referring to your first / fist typo. But yeah, Charcuterie is pretty bad. Even if you can lank up to the hold.

[rodma]

I was referring to your first / fist typo. But yeah, Charcuterie is pretty bad. Even if you can lank up to the hold.

Oops, never spotted the rogue typo 

Have done it sans pof in recent years, both the inverted shoulder press way (felt desperate making the feet stick and a much harder problem than the likes of excalibur) and going direct, but direct was a full-on swing after catching the chipped hold. I wish that someone enlightened could have told me that I just had to get better technically, or pull a little harder, or have better body tension, or a combination of these factors would be the solution.

Now, I am part of the problem, having added to the polish.

Or possibly that wearing scarpas was a mistake 

And in response to the statement that it can stabilise the rock, as someone else pointed out earlier on, just look at some of the blue circuit problems at Isatis that are of similar rock quality to Bowden. They're as sandy as could be and will have been poffed to hell over the years.

[ghisino]

my expericnces with pof

1)used dried and crushed tree resin to "train" on a very slick wooden window frame when i started climbing. It did help a lot, but it also ended up building up a lot of residual that can't simply be brushed off. Yes it could be that it adds some sort of protective patina, but it is also clear that that patina is smooth and harder to hold pofless than bare rock.


2)climbed right past a group of sweaty young beginners using pof on a red in isatis - a climb i've done on repeated occasions with ease.
The hold they repeatedly poffed felt horrible, really greasy. I think i've brushed it but it still felt much greasier than expected, compared to the same situation with chalk.

3)Climbing in alsace with a mate in his 40s, son of a bleausard and pof user...given the humid conditions, he offered to dry up a crucial pocket on the route i was trying and pulled a pof rag from his pack. The hold didn't feel any drier or stickier than on my previous attempt. I even had the impression that it got wet with my sweath faster than before the treatment, but this could be a false impression.

so as fare as i'm concerned i am quite sure that
-it builds a residual.
-it's very effective at making you hold smooth untextured surfaces...such as pof patina 
-there's something going wrong, compared to chalk, in humid conditions or with sweaty hands, at least after its application. The first user might find it helpful, but if the hold gets messy it is harder to bring it back to good conditions than with chalk.

about the long term damage i'm not sure.
it's like a religion, every one has his/her faith.
the "pof is shit" religion is not just a foreign thing, I know at least one "old" local saying that.
Alternative explanations to what looks like "pof damage" on handholds are pre-existing patina (the hold never had texture) or that it's used as a foothold later on and gets covered with rubber.



as for chalk, apart from visual impact the greatest threat that i see in it is that it can encourage erosion by use of too hard brushes, and because it encourages one to climb in slightly wet conditions, when the sandstone is more fragile.




in the future we might find out some magic antiperspirant stuff that works a treat in minimal quantities, lasting several attempts on even the sweatiest hands, and we'll use special moisture-wicking fibers to dry/brush holds?

[i.munro]

it's like a religion, every one has his/her faith.

in the future we might find out some magic antiperspirant stuff that works a treat in minimal quantities, lasting several attempts on even the sweatiest hands, and we'll use special moisture-wicking fibers to dry/brush holds?

It'd be nice to think so but it seems unlikely when any attempt to  discuss alternative methods of drying hands or even the best way to use chalk is met with hysteria by "the faithful".

[Andy B]

as for chalk, apart from visual impact the greatest threat that i see in it is that it can encourage erosion by use of too hard brushes, and because it encourages one to climb in slightly wet conditions, when the sandstone is more fragile.

Both very good points.

[slackline]

it's like a religion, every one has his/her faith.

in the future we might find out some magic antiperspirant stuff that works a treat in minimal quantities, lasting several attempts on even the sweatiest hands, and we'll use special moisture-wicking fibers to dry/brush holds?

It'd be nice to think so but it seems unlikely when any attempt to  discuss alternative methods of drying hands or even the best way to use chalk is met with hysteria by "the faithful".

Liquid chalk? 

[fried]

it's like a religion, every one has his/her faith.

in the future we might find out some magic antiperspirant stuff that works a treat in minimal quantities, lasting several attempts on even the sweatiest hands, and we'll use special moisture-wicking fibers to dry/brush holds?

It'd be nice to think so but it seems unlikely when any attempt to  discuss alternative methods of drying hands or even the best way to use chalk is met with hysteria by "the faithful".

Liquid chalk? 

Does it work? There doesn't seem to be a great deal of information about it.

[slackline]

Does it work? There doesn't seem to be a great deal of information about it.

Only one way of finding out....dig deep down the sides of your sofa.

[fried]

Does it work? There doesn't seem to be a great deal of information about it.

Only one way of finding out....dig deep down the sides of your sofa.

Sorry, I thought you might be using it, just looking for a bit of personal insight. I'll go and ask Google then.

[slackline]

Sorry, I thought you might be using it,

No, thats why I used the shrug ->

just looking for a bit of personal insight. I'll go and ask Google then.

I predict it will work for some people who love it, whilst others hate it. 

[fried]

Sorry, I thought you might be using it,

No, thats why I used the shrug ->

just looking for a bit of personal insight. I'll go and ask Google then.

I predict it will work for some people who love it, whilst others hate it. 

I've stopped googling already; Pof vs Chalk vs clean hands I can just about take, add some liquid chalk into the mix, now that starts getting seriously messy

[slackline]

I've stopped googling already; Pof vs Chalk vs clean hands I can just about take, add some liquid chalk into the mix, now that starts getting seriously messy

You're not meant to use them at the same time! 

[dave]

Then add into the confusion the fact some brands of liquid jizz contain resin anyway.

[tomtom]

I've never used liquid chalk myself - but a couple of people I climb/have climbed with, use it extensively.. One of them who sweats profusely through his hands, said it was about the only thing that made climbing possible..  it seems to work by blocking the pores rather effectively... It can also be used with regular chalk from what I have seen.

My hands dont sweat much, so a light dusting of the regular chalk is fine for me...

[i.munro]

Then add into the confusion the fact some brands of liquid jizz contain resin anyway.

Judging by my recent attempts to find some without I'd say "most" rather than "some".

[Stubbs]

Megagrip doesn't, unless it's hiding under the pseudonym 'thickener' neither does the Mammut one.

[i.munro]

All the ones I saw had it on the ingredients as Colophane or similiar.

[Paul B]

Megagrip doesn't, unless it's hiding under the pseudonym 'thickener' neither does the Mammut one.

Beal I think?

Whilst I was away I found liquid chalk perfect for applying a base layer. The alcohol really helped dry off my hands and then having it right down to the palm helped when it was extrememly hot and wrist sweat became an issue.