[yorkshireman]

when in font do you use pof?if so,how do you use it and how often?
anyone know how much(grams) you would need to make a tennis ball size in a rag?

[slackline]

Never & none.

[Andy B]

I know of very few climbers who use pof in font.

If it is regarded as fucking up the rock everywhere else in the world then why use it in the best bouldering area there is.

[yorkshireman]

very few climbers or very few english climbers?ive not been to font for about 7 years so maybe attitudes have changed but all the french and most english were using it last time i was there

[Andy B]

British and other nationalities. You see lots of French not using it now too, but does it matter who else is using it given that it fucks up the rock to a much greater extent than chalk?

[Paul B]

maybe attitudes have changed

Its certainly less wide spread than when I first visited and I agree with Andy's sentiments entirely, just don't use it.

[yorkshireman]

they dont like you using chalk either these days.
so is there a new anti pof movement in the forrest or is it just oppinions and choice to abstain from using it?
as ive said,ive not been for a while so im at the mercy of people giving me oppinions

[underground]

Just do what you'd do at Stanage, that'd be a good rule of thumb.

[lagerstarfish]

ive not been to font for about 7 years so maybe attitudes have changed but all the french and most english were using it last time i was there

2004 this was the case, so in 2005 (maybe 6? can't remember) I took a pof rag, but ended up not using it coz I didn't know what to do with it.

Then I got some knowledge in the visits after that about the effects and didn't even try.

To my knowledge; Jasper has not used the pof rag that I gave him as a birthday present some years ago for the same reasons - he had plenty of opportunity. Interestingly we have never had The Pof Conversation. It's kind of like like The Anal Sex Question with a first long term partner really.

"do you fancy it, coz I'm up for it, but am not sure about how dirty it is, or the best way of doing it, or how much it might hurt something... what do you think?"

Obviously I have never asked if I can bum Jasper, but the analogy is reasonable.

As Underground says, use a thumb first

[robertostallioni]

First rule of bum club lagers......

[yorkshireman]

My new motto-loves asking the questions you don't.
As I've said,I thought it best to ask as I've not been for years and I've only used it in the past because I was lead to believe it was necessary to climb any of the harder,slipper problems but I'm happy to be educated just asking as it's not analy with any fingers,thumbs or whatever else you can imagine that I would rather not

[underground]

If it's 'the question' as according to lagers, the answer in my experience is 'it's for shitting out of, why would you want to do that?

So, if you want pain, and holds covered in shit, go ahead with the pof. Feel free to shit all over the plantation too, but expect a little backlash.

You can probably pay lagers £275 to bum you in case you're not sure about it.

[lagerstarfish]

You can probably pay lagers £275 to bum you in case you're not sure about it.

there's a Recession Special on at the moment for all my weight loss customers

£25 off when you order the hot beef enema

Plus get a pof rag for only £9.99 (rrp £75.99)

and enter our free prize draw = you have already been selected for a GUARANTEED cash prize up to £30,000 - or at least 28p (less postage)

[Jim]

have used pof in the past (only in font) and tbh its pretty shit. don't bother these days

[Adam Lincoln]

I know a fair few locals who seem to still use it. The age rage of them is quite varied. Seems the very youngest generation, early twenties and so on seem to avoid it. Is there any signs of any pof usage on the harder classics. The Island/Big Island, Elephunk, Gecko/Gecko Assis (I didn't notice any on this), Kheops?

[lagerstarfish]

I know a fair few locals who seem to still use it. The age rage of them is quite varied.

angry old people are well scary - especially the ones with walking sticks

[iain_cbr]

A quick google of pof gave me this page http://bleau.info/cleanup/magnesium.html
Just thought I'd throw it into the mix for opinions. I've never been to font now used pof so I have no ideas for either side!

[tomtom]

I dont really understand the logic of the article.

It suggests that the bad thing about chalk is that it blocks up the pores of the rock (when there is too much)... Not sure I agree with that, but for now lets go with that article.

Hang on, if you whack enough resin (pof) on a hold, wont that have the same effect - or actually worse, as whats easier to remove from rock, chalk or Pof? Theres a clue - one is easily rinsed away, one isnt...

Pof can ruin gritstone by the way.. someone poffed the key holds on DWR and Dreamland at Almscliff c.3 years ago, and the holds feel OK now, they were uber glassy (esp Dreamland) for a year or two, but theres still a resinous/chemical sheen around the holes today...

[Johnny Brown]

I've only used pof once or twice, but...

I think its pretty arrogant telling the old bleusards that they are wrong on this. The worst 'fucking up' I've seen pof do is some black circles at the base of Carnage. Not ideal, but not in the same league as hold erosion like on Vienna for example. On the other hand, there is a chance that it pre-emptively strengthens the patina of the rock and actually prevents erosion - in a similar way that 'Substance X' has proved partially effective in slowing crumbling holds on gritstone and sandstone in the UK.

I would be rather more cautious on coarser rocks like grit, but the way Bowden has been fucked in the last ten years is hardly proof that we know more about sandstone than bleusards. I doubt there has been any proper research done, so this will always be up for argument, but it is worth considering - would pof use have prolonged the life of those holds? I'm pretty sure it would. Might the Bridestones have benefited too, who knows?

On the argument that chalk is easily rinsed away, well usually yes, but on holds that never get drainage the build-up can be pretty grim and not easily removed. And its a considerably worse eyesore...

[dave]

As a counter to JB, if you look at elephant, which has a lot of rock of the same type/hardness as bowden, and there's a lot of very bowden-esque knackered scoops for footholds. Infact these are all over the forest on the odd bits of softer rock on easier problems. Pof hasn't saved these - infact you could argue that having sand stuck to your shoe when climbing will only serve to make this wearing away effect worse.

On contrast look at the rock in the UK which is most comparable to the good hard font rock - kyloe-in (everything above 2foot of the deck) and there's very little hold erosion, exactly the same as the main hard rock in font.

The pof-hold-stabilisation argument is also counter to the traditional pof line that it "washes off in the rain".

[Andy B]

I've only used pof once or twice, but...

I think its pretty arrogant telling the old bleusards that they are wrong on this. The worst 'fucking up' I've seen pof do is some black circles at the base of Carnage. Not ideal, but not in the same league as hold erosion like on Vienna for example. On the other hand, there is a chance that it pre-emptively strengthens the patina of the rock and actually prevents erosion - in a similar way that 'Substance X' has proved partially effective in slowing crumbling holds on gritstone and sandstone in the UK.

I would be rather more cautious on coarser rocks like grit, but the way Bowden has been fucked in the last ten years is hardly proof that we know more about sandstone than bleusards. I doubt there has been any proper research done, so this will always be up for argument, but it is worth considering - would pof use have prolonged the life of those holds? I'm pretty sure it would. Might the Bridestones have benefited too, who knows?

On the argument that chalk is easily rinsed away, well usually yes, but on holds that never get drainage the build-up can be pretty grim and not easily removed. And its a considerably worse eyesore...

The suggestion that the damage to problems caused by pof amounts to some black circles on Carnage is laughable.

Vienna was treated to stabilise it long before the erosion from the last ten years. It clearly didn't work, but stabilisation efforts in the peak have been far more effective. Your cautiousness over grit just smacks of Nimbyism, or shall we start using pof at the Plantation to protect it? I'm sure there are lots of ways to strengthen the patina of sedimentary rock, but most, like pof, will negatively effect the climbing surface.

As for you, of all people, accusing us of arrogance for questioning aspects of other peoples climbing! Well that's a peach!

[Johnny Brown]

Well it was just a thought.

I'm sure there are lots of ways to strengthen the patina of sedimentary rock, but most, like pof, will negatively effect the climbing surface.

Most of the damaged problems in the UK have only been popular for twenty years. If the rock can't handle even such a short period of use, well I think we need to be looking at this kind of treatment more widely and more pro-actively. I still maintain I haven't seen any holds in font that have been 'ruined' by pof in any way as badly as those that are damaged by erosion. I'm far from convinced that pof is the cure, but I think it a bit premature to dismiss it so entirely.

the damage to problems caused by pof amounts to some black circles on Carnage is laughable

Some examples then?

Your cautiousness over grit just smacks of Nimbyism

No, I'm being cautious because its different - hold erosion problems on grit are fairly limited to the odd problem venue or hold. At the most popular venues like Stanage there is only polish to contend with - still a problem but not one I think requires an aggressive solution. I haven't visited any grit that has been heavily poffed, I don't know what the results might be, and I don't like to make assumptions.

[Andy B]

Most of the damaged problems in the UK have only been popular for twenty years. If the rock can't handle even such a short period of use, well I think we need to be looking at this kind of treatment more widely and more pro-actively.

Treatment? Pof didn't start getting used as a treatment, it's used because it makes problems easier. There is a difference between carefully thought out and limited application of hold stabilisation and widespread use of pof. The OP isn't asking whether he should be stabilising holds, he's asking whether he should use pof to help his climbing.

I still maintain I haven't seen any holds in font that have been 'ruined' by pof in any way as badly as those that are damaged by erosion.

Just because erosion is a bad thing it doesn't make pof OK. That's like saying chipping is worse than tick marks, so tick marks might be OK. The two things aren't directly related, as Dave has pointed out, but you have ignored, there are plenty of areas in font where pof has been used but erosion is still an issue.

the damage to problems caused by pof amounts to some black circles on Carnage is laughable

Some examples then?

Are you serious!

There are tons of holds buffed to an unpleasant high sheen all over the forest, as well you know.

As well as this, if you visit any unpopular, obscure circuit in the forest, the signs of pof in the long term are far more evident than that of chalk.

Your cautiousness over grit just smacks of Nimbyism

No, I'm being cautious because its different - hold erosion problems on grit are fairly limited to the odd problem venue or hold. At the most popular venues like Stanage there is only polish to contend with - still a problem but not one I think requires an aggressive solution.

Well as far as your Stanage comments go, you are just plain wrong. The starting hold of captain Hook has gone from a rounded boss to a uniform, bright yellow crumbling sloper in the last year or two. The left hand crimp on Danny's has got significantly bigger in the last few years, there are regularly calls that the backs of the rails on Green Traverse and Brad Pit are getting dug out and enlarged. Even if it had been true there are plenty of other examples of erosion at other popular venues, some of which have been helped by stabilisation to a much greater degree than Vienna was.

You still haven't addressed Dave's points either.

or this:

As for you, of all people, accusing us of arrogance for questioning aspects of other peoples climbing! Well that's a peach!

[Simon Brown]

I've only used pof once or twice, but...

I think its pretty arrogant telling the old bleusards that they are wrong on this.

  They're not gods you know. The old Bleausards are, like us in the Peak, human. Like us they make mistakes.

For me pof is one of them. My daughter summed it up really well on her first trip "Why is that rude old woman varnishing the holds? That slippy stuff doesn't come off and it spoils your shoes."

I've never used pof, and never will. I've been delighted over the last few years to see it's use decline. Perhaps we can hope the next step is for chalk to be used with more discretion.

[fried]

 This is getting a bit off topic, and I don''t really like to get involved in this kind of divisive debate but...

I climb at Font on a weekly basis, I have done most of the low level circuits in the forest and I find the evidence for damaged rock caused by pof to be exaggerated. I have seen people credit damage to rock to pof that in my completely unscientific opinion is polish caused by generations of climbers. I also believe the level of damage is exaggerated by people as an excuse to misuse chalk.

I've never used pof and don't really understand why anyone would want to put sticky powder on holds, but sometimes when working a problem with a bleausard  they have dabbed a bit on. I've said nothing. This is generally a rare occurrence these days.

[rodma]

I've seen brits in font poffing their hands on a wee problem at valee de la mee (on a 6c+ thing).

The offending chaps succeeded on the problem (if you consider that using pof to increase friction as a success) and declared it path. I was obviously outraged, but not so much as to actually say anything (I am British after all). I was more surprised that they had to borrow my brush on a stick, since they didn't even have a toothbrush with them to clean the holds, but did have an impressive pof-rag. 

I certainly used to use pof many moons ago, but after being re-educated stopped using it entirely. I was only re-educated when someone told me that they had managed all of the classics at Cuvier sans le pof, even the supposedly fucked problems which were the reason for me starting to use it in the fist place. It's funny how friendly advice evolves as attitudes change.

Don't use it, just clean and squeak your shoes thoroughly, prior to each attempt on the problem.

[a dense loner]

the pinch hold on mandarin has been poffed to death over the past year, it now has a black sheen under all the chalk. effectively we're talking can you hold the black sheen instead of the once lovely pinch just above the nose. this is at eye level and is there for all to see. pof is not good, don't get me wrong in a different time it was fuckin superb

[Johnny Brown]

Ah, finally, thanks to the man in the forest for a specific example!

I climb at Font on a weekly basis, I have done most of the low level circuits in the forest and I find the evidence for damaged rock caused by pof to be exaggerated. I have seen people credit damage to rock to pof that in my completely unscientific opinion is polish caused by generations of climbers. I also believe the level of damage is exaggerated by people as an excuse to misuse chalk.

Apart from the weekly bit sadly, this has been my experience. I'm not denying pof can have a negative effect on holds, I'm just saying I've never encountered it. I've certainly never bypassed or stopped trying a problem because of such 'damage'.

On the other hand, erosion is a big problem, I think we can agree. Just to be clear, I'm not suggesting pof use is therefore no big deal and not worth worrying about. Not am I saying folk should rush out and buy pof. What I'm saying is:

a) There is at least a chance that pof helps prolong the life of holds. Given the lack of SCIENCE on the subject, I'm prepared to keep an open mind on that.

b) I hear lots of debate about how pof is so terrible, but not about cleaning boots. The old bleausards tend to be obsessive about both. Judging by the number of british climbers I see with pads covered in sand, I think there maybe something we can learn from them.

c) The locals in font have a pretty clear statement about pof vs chalk here: http://bleau.info/cleanup/magnesium.html
I still think its pretty arrogant to dismiss it as the ramblings of the misinformed, or to assume we know better. Its their forest after all. They've been bouldering intensively there for a lot longer than we or anyone else have, and all said the place is not in bad shape.

Andy, if that's still not satisfied you maybe remember that if you want to construct a cogent argument going ad hominem is generally to be avoided. If that's still not enough, try Romans 2:1 or Luke 6:42.

[SA Chris]

the reason for me starting to use it in the fist place.

I hate to think where that might be. And why.

[slackline]

I still think its pretty arrogant to dismiss it as the ramblings of the misinformed, or to assume we know better. Its their forest after all. They've been bouldering intensively there for a lot longer than we or anyone else have, and all said the place is not in bad shape.

I don't think there's any better knowledge held by the bleusards.  They use pof over chalk because of a historical artefact defined by the geographical location and the fact that the forest is full of lovely pine trees exuding resin and the nearest magnesium carbonate mine is....?

Also my understanding is that it was Gill on the other side of the Atlantic who started using gymastic chalk whilst bouldering, it hadn't even occurred to the bleusards as they already had a solution using local, readily available and sustainable resources (regardless of the effect it had on the rock).

[Andy B]

Andy, if that's still not satisfied you maybe remember that if you want to construct a cogent argument going ad hominem is generally to be avoided. If that's still not enough, try Romans 2:1 or Luke 6:42.

Thanks for that Adam, but it seems strange to advise against ad hominem argument then immediately follow that with obtuse insults.

You still haven't responded to the counter points offered to your previous posts.

Also, given that you think it's arrogant to tell bleasards they are wrong, how do you justify using chalk in font?

[rodma]

the reason for me starting to use it in the fist place.

I hate to think where that might be. And why.

Unfortunately on Charcuterie. I was told (and believed, for why would I question those more worthy than myself) that it was impossible without it, due to the highly polished footholds (how did they get like that  )

[SA Chris]

I was referring to your first / fist typo. But yeah, Charcuterie is pretty bad. Even if you can lank up to the hold.

[rodma]

I was referring to your first / fist typo. But yeah, Charcuterie is pretty bad. Even if you can lank up to the hold.

Oops, never spotted the rogue typo 

Have done it sans pof in recent years, both the inverted shoulder press way (felt desperate making the feet stick and a much harder problem than the likes of excalibur) and going direct, but direct was a full-on swing after catching the chipped hold. I wish that someone enlightened could have told me that I just had to get better technically, or pull a little harder, or have better body tension, or a combination of these factors would be the solution.

Now, I am part of the problem, having added to the polish.

Or possibly that wearing scarpas was a mistake 

And in response to the statement that it can stabilise the rock, as someone else pointed out earlier on, just look at some of the blue circuit problems at Isatis that are of similar rock quality to Bowden. They're as sandy as could be and will have been poffed to hell over the years.

[ghisino]

my expericnces with pof

1)used dried and crushed tree resin to "train" on a very slick wooden window frame when i started climbing. It did help a lot, but it also ended up building up a lot of residual that can't simply be brushed off. Yes it could be that it adds some sort of protective patina, but it is also clear that that patina is smooth and harder to hold pofless than bare rock.


2)climbed right past a group of sweaty young beginners using pof on a red in isatis - a climb i've done on repeated occasions with ease.
The hold they repeatedly poffed felt horrible, really greasy. I think i've brushed it but it still felt much greasier than expected, compared to the same situation with chalk.

3)Climbing in alsace with a mate in his 40s, son of a bleausard and pof user...given the humid conditions, he offered to dry up a crucial pocket on the route i was trying and pulled a pof rag from his pack. The hold didn't feel any drier or stickier than on my previous attempt. I even had the impression that it got wet with my sweath faster than before the treatment, but this could be a false impression.

so as fare as i'm concerned i am quite sure that
-it builds a residual.
-it's very effective at making you hold smooth untextured surfaces...such as pof patina 
-there's something going wrong, compared to chalk, in humid conditions or with sweaty hands, at least after its application. The first user might find it helpful, but if the hold gets messy it is harder to bring it back to good conditions than with chalk.

about the long term damage i'm not sure.
it's like a religion, every one has his/her faith.
the "pof is shit" religion is not just a foreign thing, I know at least one "old" local saying that.
Alternative explanations to what looks like "pof damage" on handholds are pre-existing patina (the hold never had texture) or that it's used as a foothold later on and gets covered with rubber.



as for chalk, apart from visual impact the greatest threat that i see in it is that it can encourage erosion by use of too hard brushes, and because it encourages one to climb in slightly wet conditions, when the sandstone is more fragile.




in the future we might find out some magic antiperspirant stuff that works a treat in minimal quantities, lasting several attempts on even the sweatiest hands, and we'll use special moisture-wicking fibers to dry/brush holds?

[i.munro]

it's like a religion, every one has his/her faith.

in the future we might find out some magic antiperspirant stuff that works a treat in minimal quantities, lasting several attempts on even the sweatiest hands, and we'll use special moisture-wicking fibers to dry/brush holds?

It'd be nice to think so but it seems unlikely when any attempt to  discuss alternative methods of drying hands or even the best way to use chalk is met with hysteria by "the faithful".

[Andy B]

as for chalk, apart from visual impact the greatest threat that i see in it is that it can encourage erosion by use of too hard brushes, and because it encourages one to climb in slightly wet conditions, when the sandstone is more fragile.

Both very good points.

[slackline]

it's like a religion, every one has his/her faith.

in the future we might find out some magic antiperspirant stuff that works a treat in minimal quantities, lasting several attempts on even the sweatiest hands, and we'll use special moisture-wicking fibers to dry/brush holds?

It'd be nice to think so but it seems unlikely when any attempt to  discuss alternative methods of drying hands or even the best way to use chalk is met with hysteria by "the faithful".

Liquid chalk? 

[fried]

it's like a religion, every one has his/her faith.

in the future we might find out some magic antiperspirant stuff that works a treat in minimal quantities, lasting several attempts on even the sweatiest hands, and we'll use special moisture-wicking fibers to dry/brush holds?

It'd be nice to think so but it seems unlikely when any attempt to  discuss alternative methods of drying hands or even the best way to use chalk is met with hysteria by "the faithful".

Liquid chalk? 

Does it work? There doesn't seem to be a great deal of information about it.

[slackline]

Does it work? There doesn't seem to be a great deal of information about it.

Only one way of finding out....dig deep down the sides of your sofa.

[fried]

Does it work? There doesn't seem to be a great deal of information about it.

Only one way of finding out....dig deep down the sides of your sofa.

Sorry, I thought you might be using it, just looking for a bit of personal insight. I'll go and ask Google then.

[slackline]

Sorry, I thought you might be using it,

No, thats why I used the shrug ->

just looking for a bit of personal insight. I'll go and ask Google then.

I predict it will work for some people who love it, whilst others hate it. 

[fried]

Sorry, I thought you might be using it,

No, thats why I used the shrug ->

just looking for a bit of personal insight. I'll go and ask Google then.

I predict it will work for some people who love it, whilst others hate it. 

I've stopped googling already; Pof vs Chalk vs clean hands I can just about take, add some liquid chalk into the mix, now that starts getting seriously messy

[slackline]

I've stopped googling already; Pof vs Chalk vs clean hands I can just about take, add some liquid chalk into the mix, now that starts getting seriously messy

You're not meant to use them at the same time! 

[dave]

Then add into the confusion the fact some brands of liquid jizz contain resin anyway.

[tomtom]

I've never used liquid chalk myself - but a couple of people I climb/have climbed with, use it extensively.. One of them who sweats profusely through his hands, said it was about the only thing that made climbing possible..  it seems to work by blocking the pores rather effectively... It can also be used with regular chalk from what I have seen.

My hands dont sweat much, so a light dusting of the regular chalk is fine for me...

[i.munro]

Then add into the confusion the fact some brands of liquid jizz contain resin anyway.

Judging by my recent attempts to find some without I'd say "most" rather than "some".

[Stubbs]

Megagrip doesn't, unless it's hiding under the pseudonym 'thickener' neither does the Mammut one.

[i.munro]

All the ones I saw had it on the ingredients as Colophane or similiar.

[Paul B]

Megagrip doesn't, unless it's hiding under the pseudonym 'thickener' neither does the Mammut one.

Beal I think?

Whilst I was away I found liquid chalk perfect for applying a base layer. The alcohol really helped dry off my hands and then having it right down to the palm helped when it was extrememly hot and wrist sweat became an issue.