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Critique and some tips? (Read 8585 times)

Fultonius

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Critique and some tips?
December 26, 2010, 10:37:01 pm
I'm after a bit of help and advice - I've tried a few times to get some nice snow scenes with my 40D but they never quite have the zing of other people's scenes. I love Michael Kenna's work, especially the stuff from Hokkaido in Japan.

Here's some of my recent ones:
1.

2.


3.


I have an A3ish size print of the third one, but it's in B&W and never quite looked as good in print as one screen, which is odd as I often find photos look much better in print.
« Last Edit: December 26, 2010, 10:46:19 pm by Fultonius »

lagerstarfish

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#1 Re: Critique and some tips?
December 26, 2010, 11:09:08 pm
Apart from composition, about which I know next to nothing (I am aesthetically challenged; internally as well as externally)

pic 1 - not showing on my browser?

pic 2 - darkish sky, flat light; so don't go for a landscape shot. Get something with a bit of contrast as a subject. Get closer to the tree, stay low to the ground and look up a bit more - the sky is lighter up there so the exposed wood will look darker. Also, the tree will look less flattened.

pic 3 - get  closer to the fence (or move to the right - but that would miss the cool snow on the other side of the posts) and look more to the left. Those dark trees ain't that interesting, but the left end of the trees' shadow and the trees with the sun on them in the distance look nice. I'd concentrate on the colour of the posts contrasted against their bright, snowy backs and then the interesting shapes in the background.
That bank of dark trees would just take over in B&W.
It'd be nice to keep that texture of the snow in the foreground, so trying the camera at different heights would be good.



*I am not a doctor or a photographer

lagerstarfish

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#2 Re: Critique and some tips?
December 26, 2010, 11:30:01 pm
Hold on, pic 1 now showing up

What's the subject? The geese or the tree? Nice lower half of the sky which could be suped up by increasing the contrast.

I'd go left of the tree and take a pic of the line of geese leading off to the right with the lines in the sky going up and right.

Then I'd try a bold shot using the trunk of the tree framing the right side of the pic and the branches framing the top - unlikely to work, but worth a shot

for a B&W result from what you have in pics 1 and 2; they could be tricked up by separating the tree, sky, foreground and far tree line (inc hill line) and changing the contrast in each part differently.

This being a critic thing is well easy. Where's my cheque?

SA Chris

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#3 Re: Critique and some tips?
December 27, 2010, 07:52:35 am
Exposing for snow is always a bit of a pig, especially in overcast conditions; underexpose and it all looks grey, overexpose and lose your highlights. It's a digi camera and the subject isn't going anywhere, so bracket your exposure and see which gives the best results. Also check your white balance isn't set to sunshine.

Also none of the pics look totally pinsharp, are you using the smallest aperture you can get away with handholding on?

The last pic has no real focal point to it? I would have tried shooting down the fence line.

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#4 Re: Critique and some tips?
December 27, 2010, 11:48:56 am
This will probably come across as sounding a bit odd , but I find the background distracting in pic 2 ......

SA Chris

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#5 Re: Critique and some tips?
December 27, 2010, 12:33:27 pm
I think you are right on that. getting up closer and low with a wide lens to get the tree to stand out against sky would maybe have been better?

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#6 Re: Critique and some tips?
December 27, 2010, 12:48:49 pm
The first two are seriously underexposed - as Chris said, exposing for snow can be tricky. But they are low contrast scenes so can be rescued on the computer - snow and overcast sky should be predominantly white - histogram should be jammed up to the right without blowing the highlights. The third is fine exposure wise.

Composition is a long learning curve. If you're aiming for Kenna's style, the key thing is to simplify. And then simplify further. All those could be simplified a lot further. With the first two, the trees back right are distracting and unbalancing. I'd suggest different to Lagers - back off, and use a longer lens - this will isolate the tree more, and get very low, to place it against the sky. With the third, I'd agree with Lagers - a step or two forward and right, wait for the sun to go in - which simplifies the scene by smoothing the snow and removing the shadow from in front of the trees (or if not, perhaps ensure the central post top is seperated from the shadow behind) - then crop to square, covert to b+w and boost contrast.

I think most of Kenna's work is done with a standard prime lens - there's a great film of him at work here. Never underestimate the impact of the kit on how you work. A manual film camera with a standard lens might be a good exercise to get you into the mindset.

Edit: maybe something in this direction?



Realised whilst messing that the shadows of the fence and wires are quite complex, again, an overcast moment might improve this.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2010, 01:19:37 pm by Johnny Brown »

Fultonius

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#7 Re: Critique and some tips?
December 29, 2010, 10:37:00 am

What's the subject? The geese or the tree? Nice lower half of the sky which could be suped up by increasing the contrast.

This being a critic thing is well easy. Where's my cheque?

Cheque's in the post - don't blame me if the Royal Mail lose it...

Back to the snaps - originally it was the snow/tree/weather combo that made me stop the car and go for some pics, then all of a sudden the geese popped out from nowhere and I started firing away, so it wasn't well planned or thought out. I see what you're saying about the confusion  - especially with the tree overlapping the geese.

Here's the same shot fixed for lighting etc. (can't do much about the composition now...)



Exposing for snow is always a bit of a pig, especially in overcast conditions; underexpose and it all looks grey, overexpose and lose your highlights. It's a digi camera and the subject isn't going anywhere, so bracket your exposure and see which gives the best results. Also check your white balance isn't set to sunshine.

I normally overexpose in snow by about 2/3 to 1 stop, but I seem to have only gone 1/3 over on these ones, and I forgot to put it on RAW too. The third one had tricky lighting as the tops of the posts were in direct sun but the rest of the snow was more gently lit. White balance is normally just on Auto (I usually adjust in RAW anyway)

Also none of the pics look totally pinsharp, are you using the smallest aperture you can get away with handholding on?

Hmm, that's a tricky one! My lens (Canon 17-55 F2.8 ) is super sharp from F2.8 to about F6 but quite quickly loses sharpness after that, so I have a tendency to stick around the F5.6 mark - I should experiment more with the smaller apertures to max out the DOF, learning, learning...

The last pic has no real focal point to it? I would have tried shooting down the fence line.

There was something nice about the light on the fence posts, the snow shading and the tress, but it just doesn't quite seem as good as I rememeber - maybe you're right, maybe those things are there, but it just doesn't work because of the lack of focal point.

This will probably come across as sounding a bit odd , but I find the background distracting in pic 2 ......
No, I know what you mean - it pulls your eye away from the subject (the tree) to the side, which isn't very interesting...

Composition is a long learning curve. If you're aiming for Kenna's style, the key thing is to simplify. And then simplify further. All those could be simplified a lot further. With the first two, the trees back right are distracting and unbalancing. I'd suggest different to Lagers - back off, and use a longer lens - this will isolate the tree more, and get very low, to place it against the sky. With the third, I'd agree with Lagers - a step or two forward and right, wait for the sun to go in - which simplifies the scene by smoothing the snow and removing the shadow from in front of the trees (or if not, perhaps ensure the central post top is seperated from the shadow behind) - then crop to square, covert to b+w and boost contrast.

I think most of Kenna's work is done with a standard prime lens - there's a great film of him at work here. Never underestimate the impact of the kit on how you work. A manual film camera with a standard lens might be a good exercise to get you into the mindset.


Realised whilst messing that the shadows of the fence and wires are quite complex, again, an overcast moment might improve this.

All good points - will keep this in mind and try harder! Should probably bust out the nifty fifty more often too..

SA Chris

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#8 Re: Critique and some tips?
December 29, 2010, 10:49:22 am
One thing I was told once, but never believed, was use a tripod more. I have started carrying it around more, when possible, and I think it helps you to compose better, as well as giving you the chance to stop down and get the pics as sharp as possible. Also if you have the time and are able try walking 5 m to the left and right and see if the composition gets better or worse.

These are tips I was given ages ago, but only starting to realise how true they are.

Fultonius

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#9 Re: Critique and some tips?
December 29, 2010, 10:54:40 am
Guess where the tripod was??  :whistle:

Yup, in the car!  I was using the tripod on the 3rd pic though. Need to get out and find a nice subject somewhere and really test out the limits of the lens - see where the best compromise of DOF and sharpness lies.

Oh, and I need to find some artisticness from somewhere....
« Last Edit: December 29, 2010, 11:00:46 am by Fultonius »

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#10 Re: Critique and some tips?
December 29, 2010, 12:11:57 pm
Running the same pics through Nik's Color Efex Pro "Pro Contrast" filter on default settings gives these - just offering a different viewpoint really.






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#11 Re: Critique and some tips?
January 07, 2011, 04:18:34 am
One other thing on top of what the other folks have said (and its not specific to these pictures). Take lots and lots of pics. Dont take 1 take 100, or 500 or 1000- memory costs nothing once youve got it

Take different composures, different exposures, different depth of fields - in fact shoot every f-stop under and over exposed for a particular scene

It may sound like overkill but its only once you learn to see how your camera sees that youll make big improvements. All the meta data for every shot is saved so theres no longer any need to take detailed notes - you can then easily compare all your shots on the PC

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#12 Re: Critique and some tips?
January 07, 2011, 08:18:42 am
+ shoot in RAW.  I'm a recent convert and its great.

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#13 Re: Critique and some tips?
January 07, 2011, 09:14:43 am
Conversely I'd say taking fewer well considered shots generally speaking (i.e. landscapes) will give you better results. Nobody can go out and take 500 quality shots in one go. I think Ansel Adams once said if you can take one photo each month that you're entirely hapy with then you're doing well (edit: I found the actual quote "Twelve significant photographs in any one year is a good crop"). This still holds true even with digital. I certainly get better landscape results by taking fewer photos, and I'm not convincved I learned very much back when I did used to go out and fire off shit like it was going out of fashion - its hard to glean any lesson from a folder with 200 very similar photos, especially since you can't possible remember the your intentions for every single shot.

Bearing in mind if you're using bobby digital then you can see straight away the exposure, WB and composition of your shot instantly.

Chris is on the money with tripods. Obviously sometimes in very fleeting light its not practical, but more often than not the compositional benefits of tripod use are tremendous, even if you've got a D3x and can shoot at 5-figure ISOs.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2011, 10:26:30 am by dave »

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#14 Re: Critique and some tips?
January 07, 2011, 09:56:51 am
I've now got a quick release bracket on my camera all then time which cuts down the faff and means I use the tripod a lot more. Especially if you have one that means fiddling about in cold weather. And I keep tripod right by front door, rather than buried in an upstairs cupboard.

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#15 Re: Critique and some tips?
January 07, 2011, 10:03:09 am
Some probably naive answers and a couple of questions:

Since moving from taking piccies with a compact to a DSLR I've found that slowing down and thinking more before pressing the button helps alot. E.G. I noticed in the above that the goose scene has a wonky horizon - which is my #1 ferk up - so now I check horizon every time and have the grid lines thingy up in the viewfinder. Also since using the 10-20 I keep getting bits of my body (feet) and especially shadows of me in the picture.... so am mega careful for that.

What is the whole shizzle with RAW anyway?? Tris used my camera once and changed the settings to RAW and Jpeg saying I should always shoot in RAW and process later -  I changed back after it filled up my memory card too fast.... is it really much better - and do I then have to buy/use some fancy dan bit of software to process all my pictures?

Yours lazily,

TT

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#16 Re: Critique and some tips?
January 07, 2011, 10:09:31 am
I'd agree that simplifying is key, and not to take shitloads of photos. There's nothing worse than wading through loads on the computer, when you could have been editing/shortlisting when you were out. It made sense to take more when shooting slide, particularly with something like snow scenes where exposure might not be easy peasy.

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#17 Re: Critique and some tips?
January 07, 2011, 10:11:31 am
What is the whole shizzle with RAW anyway?? Tris used my camera once and changed the settings to RAW and Jpeg saying I should always shoot in RAW and process later -  I changed back after it filled up my memory card too fast....

RAW is exactly what it means, all of the information that the sensor captures without processing.  In your camera you have presets like Landscape, or portrait under the settings menu, these determine how the RAW image is processed and use preset saturation, contrast etc. etc.  Once an image is processed to JPEG by the camera its had all of these things set by whatever preset you have the camera set up with and because JPEG is a compressed format you loose the ability to change these things from the RAW data.  Shoot RAW and you can the process as required, setting saturation, correcting white balance, even getting a few f-stops back with exposure compensation.

is it really much better

I was reluctant to bother with RAW as I'm pretty lazy processing, plus there was no Photoshop/Lightroom/whatever Adobe choose to call it for Linux (but see below).  Paul B convince me to try it and I've been very happy and pleased with what it can do, correcting white balance is great, I shot this when it was snowing heavily and despite having WB set to the sodium lights setting it was still all orangey, corrected easily in processing...


The Wicker by slack---line, on Flickr

- and do I then have to buy/use some fancy dan bit of software to process all my pictures?

I'm sure others will say Lightroom/Photoshop/whatever Adobe choose to call it is the only way to do these things, but Paul B pointed me at the FOSS program RawTherapee and I've been using that, it has a simple layout and is easy to use.

Fultonius

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#18 Re: Critique and some tips?
January 07, 2011, 10:18:50 am
E.G. I noticed in the above that the goose scene has a wonky horizon - which is my #1 ferk up - so now I check horizon every time and have the grid lines thingy up in the viewfinder.

I thought the horizon was squint too and went to adjust it in photoshop, but when I did I found it was actually pretty straight - must be some kind of trick-of-the-eye! Maybe it's the fence line and trees that fool the eye?

Taking time to really think about what I'm doing will help a lot I think. The times I've done this have often worked out best.


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#19 Re: Critique and some tips?
January 07, 2011, 10:30:18 am
Thanks Slackers - thats a great tip for the s/w.

Whilst taking landscapes seems to require more thought, taking people shots seems to be far more instinctive... I was chatting up to one of the photographers at a mates wedding a few years back, and was amazed at the people pics she was taking of dancing, people chatting/eating whatever.. I wondered if her fancy camera helped - so to prove her point she nabbed my compact and wandered round for 5 min and took a load of amazing shots on it.. Its something I just can not do well - press the button at the right moment (with the right framing of course) when taking shots of people.
Landscapes seem a bit more logical (and slow moving!) than people shots, and I can get there more by trial, error and elimination.... Climbing shots seem halfway between the two - its partly getting the landscape and partly the person/problem.. Just my friday morning musings...

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#21 Re: Critique and some tips?
January 07, 2011, 12:01:07 pm
Conversely I'd say taking fewer well considered shots generally speaking (i.e. landscapes) will give you better results. Nobody can go out and take 500 quality shots in one go. I think Ansel Adams once said if you can take one photo each month that you're entirely hapy with then you're doing well (edit: I found the actual quote "Twelve significant photographs in any one year is a good crop"). This still holds true even with digital. I certainly get better landscape results by taking fewer photos, and I'm not convincved I learned very much back when I did used to go out and fire off shit like it was going out of fashion - its hard to glean any lesson from a folder with 200 very similar photos, especially since you can't possible remember the your intentions for every single shot.

Bearing in mind if you're using bobby digital then you can see straight away the exposure, WB and composition of your shot instantly.

Chris is on the money with tripods. Obviously sometimes in very fleeting light its not practical, but more often than not the compositional benefits of tripod use are tremendous, even if you've got a D3x and can shoot at 5-figure ISOs.

I understand what your saying re shooting lots of pics and I wouldnt suggest you do this all the time or even more than a handful of times. But in order to take the best pics you need to know your equipment intimately. As for them being good? Well thats not the point of the exercise.... Can you look at a scene and visualise what it'll look like through an 85mm and f5.6 overexposed by 1 stop?

How about the same scene at 100mm or at f11?

Any successful photog will be able to visualise an image and go out and take it with little or no fuss

Yes its boring and tedious going through stacks of individual images that look the same but its the only way of learning exactly how your equipment behaves.

 

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