[biscuit]

I have set myself the target of going from 7a+ to 7c in the next 12 mths and need some help putting together the last - and probably most important - part of my training plan.

Has anyone first hand experience of using the progression system from self coached climber ?

Anyone able to compare the two or just give pro's and con's of either ?

I have an idea of which i am leaning towards but just want to consult a bit wider before i commit.

[fried]

No idea. But a virtual karma point for keeping me slim(er).

[Falling Down]

If by progression you mean the pyramid system described in the SCC then I had my best year of climbing following it last year. 

- it gives you more options to set goals and describe success so a day spent building out the base would mean just as much as a big tick day.
- it encourages volume which is always good.
- it's really flexible and accommodating of the schedule and weather bound life of a weekend warrior in the UK.

I went from 7a to 7b+ and nearly bagging a 7c in 6 months (before getting injured... but that was to do with me not resting enough and some legacy elbow problems that I hadn't figured out) using the pyramid method.

Also, the two approached aren't incompatible...

Sorry for typos as I'm writing on the phone.

[Muenchener]

I'm going through a similar thought process at the mo', albeit a full number grade lower (6a to 6c).

From my reading of SCC, their suggested regimes are for generalists/weekend warriors who want to keep up motivation and a sense of achievement pretty steadily - for which, as Falling Down says, filling in one's pyramid and the general emphasis on volume are excellent. They do however also say that those who are willing to undergo a more rigorous periodisation programme, and the associated short to medium drop in performance, can achieve better results if they are aiming towards a peak at a specific time.

I personally have my first big trip for years planned at Easter and expect to be outdoors only on snow between now and then, so I'm contemplating going scientific with a periodised winter plan.

(I suspect though that at my standard, probably anything I do that involves building up climbing experience and confidence will show benefits, and worrying about the finer points of training regimes is something that could actually wait until I hit the inevitable plateau.)

[shark]

I have an idea of which i am leaning towards but just want to consult a bit wider before i commit.

 

Fuck knows. I abdicate responsibility this winter so I can blame the coach if it goes tits up. Whatever you decide stick with it.

[Paul B]

I have an idea of which i am leaning towards but just want to consult a bit wider before i commit.

Whats your idea?

and can you clarify your goal, all it says is a grade increase, are we talking base level, onsight, max redpoint (in this country?)?

[Baldy]

Would someone mind dropping an explanation of this system?
It sounds rather neat with those kinda results, and lord knows I need some better targets.

[Muenchener]

In my unsophisticated understanding:

"Periodisation" = you have a specific goal, some time in the mid- to distant future - e.g. competition season, big planned trip - and are willing to sacrifice short term performance in pursuit of this goal. You divide your time, emhpasis dependent on the nature of your goal and your analysis of your current weaknesses, into a period of aerobic base / high mileage easy stuff, a period focusing on strength (maybe subdivided into hypertrophy / recruitment / power if you're already sophisticated), and shortly before Showtime, a period of power endurance: 4x4s, hard circuits, starting redpoint projects etc.

Then you achieve the goal (???), then you rest for a couple of weeks, then you start again.

"Progression" as it's being talked about here is from Hague & Hunter's book The Self-Coached Climber, an excellent book that you should probably read rather than relyng on a three line synopsis of a small part of it. However: they set out training programmes for the "normal" climber who isn't training for the competition circuit or the big trip of a lifetime, and therefore wants to maintain more interest & variety, and avoic the short term performance dip, of a rigorous periodisation programme. Instead the idea is to maintain motivation via continuous measurable goals and progress. They have a detailed chapter of suggested programmes for various levels, but all focus on:

(a) maintaining or reaching required levels of bouldering ability, aerobic easy climbing ability, 4x4 power endurance (etc.) for the desired level of redpoint ability

(b) clear separation between "training" and "performance" sessions within the climbing week - as opposed to clear separation between "training" and "performance" seasons in the periodisation model

(c) motivational short term goals focused on building "pyramids" of 8-4-2-1 routes: 1 at the target grade, 2 at one grade below that etc. Could be redpoint routes, or boulder problems, or whatever, depending on what you're trying to achieve. They suggest, if your current desired "1" is a specific route, focusing on building a pyrmaid of experience on routes similar to it (so, e.g., not doing loads of slate slabs if your goal is in a cave on Kalymnos)

[biscuit]

I have an idea of which i am leaning towards but just want to consult a bit wider before i commit.

Whats your idea?

and can you clarify your goal, all it says is a grade increase, are we talking base level, onsight, max redpoint (in this country?)?

Redpoint grade in this country ( North England ). Just reached 7a+ last week on a Gaz Parry course and felt i had more in the bank. He said if i get my arse in gear 7c is achievable in the next 12 mths.

[biscuit]

I have an idea of which i am leaning towards but just want to consult a bit wider before i commit.

Whats your idea?

and can you clarify your goal, all it says is a grade increase, are we talking base level, onsight, max redpoint (in this country?)?

Redpoint grade in this country ( North England ). Just reached 7a+ last week on a Gaz Parry course and felt i had more in the bank. He said if i get my arse in gear 7c is achievable in the next 12 mths.

forgot to add what my idea is. I wasn't wanting to start a discussion about 'my idea' but to just get other viewpoints so i could make a decision, but why not.

My idea is to run with SCC progression pyramids, but to concentrate on shorter and/or bouldery crux routes for first part of season and then work more endurance based routes to the target - which atm is Comedy.

This will build up my str base before entering an end phase ( roughly along the lines of periodisation ) and work my weaknesses - technical fingery routes - before hitting my strength of endurance routes and blasting through to 7c. The constant reward of the SCC system, which will also be easier to stick to with my lifestyle, and its focus on volume will be good for me. It's what i've lacked this year. I don't want to ignore the tried and tested periodisation though hence my 'idea'.

I could just pick end. routes all the way through but i would like to become a more rounded climber too. 

[biscuit]

 

Fuck knows. I abdicate responsibility this winter so I can blame the coach if it goes tits up. Whatever you decide stick with it.
[/quote]


Love it ! I'm sure Tom knows what he's doing 

Sticking with it is the way ahead. Someone on the other channel said similar, that 200 quality sessions in a year are going to massively improve your climbing even if it's not 'perfect'.

Nice one on the updated training references BTW. I've been laid up with man flu this week and it's made for interesting reading. Cheers.

[ghisino]

I have set myself the target of going from 7a+ to 7c in the next 12 mths and need some help putting together the last - and probably most important - part of my training plan.

-boulder or routes?
-what you mean by "last"? last month? last 3 months? where are you now : just starting over the 12 months or at the end of them? How close to your goal?
-7c : one is fine or you want to have a "level" to come with it, many 7b and 7b+ in different styles?


i've never read "SCC", but i'm familiar with 3 kinds of training :
a)totally unstructured. I get in the gym and do whatever i like that day
b)structured, following 4-weeks plans from a training book whose idea looks close to the "progression" system . i.e. for routes, you would train endurance on tuesday and boulder/campus on thursday.
c)structured, following my experience of how things have worked in the past, with a very basic sort of periodization : trashing myself with volume until 1 or 2 months before an objective to build some tolerance for training, then take a week off, then start to do short&intense sessions of very specific work, with great attention on recovery (very mild session if not fully recovered from the last one).

my personal experience is that something in the lines of c) would work great if you really have a specific objective. Great for a trip or for boulders/routes that only get good conditions in a specific time of the year.
Also great if spending a lot of time on the actual boulder or route you want to do generates anxiety or lowers your self-confidence : the idea is that once you have a precise idea of the project's specific requirements, you don't get back on it until you feel you only need to polish your beta and give a few proper tries...

Taining like b) ("progression?")is good if you have a very generic objective, if you want to increase the grade of stuff you send fast (like 20 minutes on a boulder problem, onsight/seconf go for routes). Won't do wonders on a specific objective unless you spend all your "performance time" on it, i.e. you want to do this route and spend all your weekends trying the moves, then lining it in sections, then giving proper tries, etc...

[biscuit]

The 'last'bit was deciding what to follow: periodisation or progression. I am just starting my 12 mths and aim to crack off a steep 7c in that time - just the one - probably comedy.

 I have no trips lined up etc.

I am better ( it would seem ) at climbing wall style steep routes. No surprise there as my rock time this year has been pathetic but i've been getting to the wall. I want to raise my level across the board too. I don't want to become a one trick pony.

I am certainly thinking more towards progression than periodisation.

Thanks for the info

[esox]

That "progression" system sounds quite interesting and might be just perfect for my situation. Just wondering will the progress stall at some point if schedule is the same and it keeps on going between training - performing week after week? In conventional periodization stimulus would change when training focus changes for example from hypertrophy to recruitment training.
To put it in other words, what variables I should be changing to keep the training stimulus at correct level? (My goals would be on ticking harder (up from 6b) boulder problems if that makes any difference.)

[biscuit]

You pick your target - say a steep 7c  and then test yourself against the suggested levels you need to be at to achieve it ( from SCC ). SCC is about routes not bouldering so i can't be specific for you. 4 sessions a week - 2 training and 2 performance where you build up your pyramids. The training sessions prioritise your weaknesses relating to your target. You may train all aspects in one workout.

 Once you've reached your target start again with a different/harder target. This means the stimulus never plateaus.

[rodma]

The 'last'bit was deciding what to follow: periodisation or progression. I am just starting my 12 mths and aim to crack off a steep 7c in that time - just the one - probably comedy.

If there is one route in particular that you want to do and you're not interested in flashing it, then why not follow the old British tradition of a siege? 

Most boulderers siege boulder problems anyway, whether they realise ithey are sieging or not. The "I'll definately get it next shot" mindset cunningly masking the fact that you're curently not capable of getting up the damn thing.

[ghisino]

The 'last'bit was deciding what to follow: periodisation or progression. I am just starting my 12 mths and aim to crack off a steep 7c in that time - just the one - probably comedy.

if this is the case that "progression" approach seems what you need now.
But if you start to feel decently close to your objective, ask yourself if you'd like to take a shortcut, i.e. 1 to 3 months of specific work.

btw : if you can climb outdoors on both weekend days, it would be great.
Try to think that one of the two days is a "training" one, i.e. you're not going for any major send...
The best thing to do is probably aim for a big volume of routes, not too easy nor too hard...a difficulty that's challenging, where you need to put in some effort, but where you will climbing efficiently (no wobble, no messy footwork, good pace)
No big rests before an attempt, just belay and climb...just a lunch break if you're doing a full day out...Of course a motivated partner is essential.
how this translates in grades, depends on previous knowledge of the routes, style of the routes, fatigue, experience...
as a rule of thumb, if you're objective is redpointing, i'd do :
-3/4 warmups
-a couple of "second go" routes, grade at or a bit above your onsight limit. If you have a hard time sending them, they're a bit too hard.
-repeat routes already done "second go" on another day and§/or try some easy onsight (eg a full grade below your os limit), until you're trashed.
-look at the moves of another potential "second go" route, make sure you've memorized the sequence, that will save beta time for the next time you're "training" at that crag.
-really easy warm down route if you fancy it.

[ghisino]

the old British tradition of a siege? 

not being brit, neither from areas where "sieging" is popular, i wonder how people afford it.

mentally, i mean...
i've had a few epic long-term projects next door and almost always ended up in a counter-productive mental path, and eventually abandon the routes.
Then during the same season i would go on a climbing trip, focus 3 or 4 days on a route i'd never seen before, and a grade equal or even harder than the one i would siege back home would kinda pop out of nowhere...
(and no, not in kalymnos or el chorro or whatever...the "soft holiday grade" is not an explanation here)

[esox]

You pick your target - say a steep 7c  and then test yourself against the suggested levels you need to be at to achieve it ( from SCC ). SCC is about routes not bouldering so i can't be specific for you. 4 sessions a week - 2 training and 2 performance where you build up your pyramids. The training sessions prioritise your weaknesses relating to your target. You may train all aspects in one workout.

 Once you've reached your target start again with a different/harder target. This means the stimulus never plateaus.

How did you now I'm dreaming of particular steep 7c/7b+ ... ???
I may have to start with easier targets first though...

Anyway, thanks for explanation. Currently four sessions (climbing) /week is not possible timewise.. I have Beastmaker though so maybe that can help bit.. Three session might be possible, but for now I have been able to squeeze in only two. so maybe two sessions training, one for performance? Then extra Beastmaker session if my old fingers can take it..

[mrjonathanr]

I'd periodize. For Comedy I'd also aim for power to spare, it'll make it more pleasant: it'll be practical to increase fitness if you're pumping out near the top that way, but if you've just enough power for the moves you'll need to be really fit. Also get some good info on the moves, there are a few tricks which can help.

[biscuit]

I'd periodize. For Comedy I'd also aim for power to spare, it'll make it more pleasant: it'll be practical to increase fitness if you're pumping out near the top that way, but if you've just enough power for the moves you'll need to be really fit. Also get some good info on the moves, there are a few tricks which can help.

But why would you periodise rather than use progression ?

The rest is top tips cheers.

[mrjonathanr]

Because I'm ignorant of what the SCC says but since you've got time and periodization gets a good rep as an effective long term strategy, that would be my personal preference. For a properly informed view, rather than a prejudice, you need Sepico or someone similarly informed to comment. FWIW I want to be fit at different points next year (late Feb, then May/June) so am doing very different things at different times (ie strength vs stamina). We'll see if it works.

[rodma]

To be honest

I would probably only use periodisation in the early stages and then switch to the progression method.

It's quite hard to peak at the right time with periodisation and you have the climate to contend with. What are the chances of both you and the route being in condition at the same time?

Saying that, I haven't read the literature in question, so what do i know. I've never quite managed to get it right to be honest. I think that I've always climbed at my best by thoroughly beasting myself for several days on and then taking a couple of rest days before each rock-day or comp. Then staright back to the beasting again.

[Falling Down]

SCC is about routes not bouldering so i can't be specific for you.

Is it? I interpreted as appropriate for bouldering, sport and trad.  I had three pyramids going on  and was 'periodising' between the bouldering and routes pyramid to work both.

[Fultonius]

I've never quite managed to get it right to be honest. I think that I've always climbed at my best by thoroughly beasting myself for several days on and then taking a couple of rest days before each rock-day or comp. Then straight back to the beasting again.

Rodders, This isn't a dig or a put down, but, well, how do I put this... You've admitted in the past that your comp/trip performance is often a big let down and you're nearly semi-permanently injured.

http://roddybouldering.blogspot.com/2009/10/getting-it-right.html

Maybe some periodisation would help break this chain?

Just a thought