[Andy W]

Apparently under the proposed solution then parts of Carn Gowla are in danger of becoming sport crags.

http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=427411&new=6050917#x6049981

just been reading this thread and trying not to get involved...I suppose its fairly predictable. I was also a bit dismayed with the 'news' item on UKC especially the use  of the Bosigran photo.

[sidewinder]

just been reading this thread and trying not to get involved...I suppose its fairly predictable. I was also a bit dismayed with the 'news' item on UKC especially the use  of the Bosigran photo.

especially with the caption

Classic traditional climbing in Cornwall at Bosigran. But will it stay that way?

all a bit daily mail.

[SA Chris]

just been reading this thread and trying not to get involved...I suppose its fairly predictable.

Likewise, amazed at the phrases "insidious creep" and "open the floodgates" still being used. Had a moment of deja vu, and though it was the early 80s all over again.

[Johnny Brown]

I haven't done much in Cornwall, nor have I been to Carn Vellan. On that basis I don't feel qualified to offer an opinion on bolting.

However I object strongly to this:

2. Penwith and Cornish climbers who wish to develop sport climbing in Cornwall should have the same opportunity to  develop crags in their local areas just like the rest of the UK.

What nonsense. Whether or not the rock lends itself towards bolt protection is a purely a question of geomorphology, not equal opportunities.

I understand why the sentiment has been expressed but I think you've made a grave error in including it. It sends out completely the wrong message; a massive own goal with such an emotive issue as this.

[Andy W]

I haven't done much in Cornwall, nor have I been to Carn Vellan. On that basis I don't feel qualified to offer an opinion on bolting.

However I object strongly to this:

2. Penwith and Cornish climbers who wish to develop sport climbing in Cornwall should have the same opportunity to  develop crags in their local areas just like the rest of the UK.

What nonsense. Whether or not the rock lends itself towards bolt protection is a purely a question of geomorphology, not equal opportunities.

I understand why the sentiment has been expressed but I think you've made a grave error in including it. It sends out completely the wrong message; a massive own goal with such an emotive issue as this.

Is it really geomorphology that determines what is bolted. I suspect not.

The phrasing that you object to may indeed contribute to an own goal. But at the moment I feel that we may never get the ball into the middle of the field to start with (sorry for mangled metaphors).

The phrasing of the motion is intended to be as rational and unemotive as possible.

If I ask why shouldn't Penwith/Cornish climbers have the same (equal) opportunities as the rest of the UK, what would your reply be?

[Johnny Brown]

There's barely any point in adding that when you've already lost 2/3rds of the climbing nation with statements 1 and 2. I've been in enough bolt/ access meetings to know that opening with grandiose statements about your 'rights' is precisely the worst way to go about things.

[Stubbs]

Agree, definite unfortunate wording in the statement, certainly not helped on at all by the UKC article, has anyone said 'thin end of the wedge' yet?  Should make for an interesting meeting anyway!

[Andy W]

i've been in enough bolt/ access meetings to know that opening with grandiose statements about your 'rights' is precisely the worst way to go about things.

Yeah I can imagine that ...

Still it is not clear to me that there are any universal principles here. As posted higher in the thread, and on the Borg in the past, I am still waiting for anyone at all to articulate the "rules" of British bolting, consistent with all the currently-bolted venues, in less than 100 words or even a short paperback. I agree with you that geomorphology should be the only guide, but that's clearly not the current status quo.

As a BMC meeting novice I'm prepared to accept that we may have got our approach wrong, but for me this is all a mix of the pragmatic, ie the current state of Carn Vellan and what to do about it and that expressed in  points 1 and 2.

Can we clear up what we mean by geomorphology, do you and JB mean geology?  I would have thought that the context is made up of suitability of rock for bolts/sport climbing, which of course isn't the same as suitability of rock geology for bolting.

The socio/politcal and the historical are also factors that contribute to context.

[Stubbs]

Geomorphology is the combination of the geology of an area and the processes that geology has undergone to produce the landforms that we see in the present day.  It's a better term than geology in this context, as rock type alone is not a good indicator of whether bolting is appropriate (i.e Pembroke Limestone vs yorkshire limestone, or high tor vs raven tor, etc).  Quarrying could also be considered as anthropogenic geomorphology.

[Andy W]

Geomorphology is the combination of the geology of an area and the processes that geology has undergone to produce the landforms that we see in the present day.  It's a better term than geology in this context, as rock type alone is not a good indicator of whether bolting is appropriate (i.e Pembroke Limestone vs yorkshire limestone, or high tor vs raven tor, etc).  Quarrying could also be considered as anthropogenic geomorphology.

Exactly, its not limestone itself which determines its suitability for bolting, its the context or site in which the limestone occurs. The main factors which then come to bear are historical and cultural. The process geomorphologically speaking which contributed to the geology are secondary.

Anthropogenic/geomorphologically speaking Carn Vellan is interesting. Upon entering Pendeen village, parking and walking to the base of the crag one walks entirely through/on a post industrial landscape, the cliff itself shows plenty of evidence of having been worked.

[Sloper]

I don't think that there's a logical rules based approach to this question that will lead to a reasonaed answer; instead I think that an ethics based approach is better suited even though that will lead to numerous and conflicting answers.

Personally I would want to see all of Cornwall bolt free. 

It's not as if there's a lack of good trad climbing.
It's not as if every piece of rock needs to be climbed (and be changed to allow this to happen).
The 'thin end of the wedge' argument does hold validity as it allows people to say, 'well if it's all right for them there, why not for me here'?  A practical example is the use of headpointed for E8/9 being used as a justification for top roping VS's.

Once you classify certain crags as suitable for bolts you will find routes on 'trad' crags that meet the same criteria that justified bolts on the other crags and, then what's to prevent these routes being bolted?

I can't remember what the quote is from a Man for All Seasons, but you being a well red lot probably know the one I mean.

[Jaspersharpe]

I can't remember what the quote is from a Man for All Seasons, but you being a well red lot probably know the one I mean.

Tory freudian slip.

[Johnny Brown]

Anthropogenic/geomorphologically speaking Carn Vellan is interesting. Upon entering Pendeen village, parking and walking to the base of the crag one walks entirely through/on a post industrial landscape, the cliff itself shows plenty of evidence of having been worked.

Certainly sounds interesting. Its factors like these that make british climbing so interesting, and why I'm not about to offer an opinion without a site visit. As a BMC access rep, I've had an email this week urging me to offer my support to the anti-bolt camp. Despite being a fairly rabid anti-bolter, I'm not about to do that based on my current knowledge.

A few general observations though - I don't think locals should have any more say than non-locals. What does matter is that everyone involved actually has local knowledge. The probability of that may be higher amongst locals, but it is by no means restricted to them. It looks to me though that you're heading for a replay of the last meeting where bolts are rejected, but by a supposed non-local majority. Given the history, I doubt that will be the end of the matter.

You'll never get a consensus on this, but you might get a compromise all can live with. It might be worth concentrating on what that might be rather than anything grander.

[jstrongman]

This is a very difficult issue and very emotive, especially with all of its past history. I am personally undecided and look forward to the meeting.

Are there examples of other trad venues which are on similar rock (metamorphosed slate "killas") and as steep as the carn vellan main roof in the uk?

Are there other sport venues of similar steepness and rock type? ie what is the BMC position on The Anvil in Scotland for example?

[jstrongman]

For my sins I have posted what i think is a fair comprimise on ukclimbing. Thoughts appreciated.

"This topic is very emotive and there is a lot of personal histories with the subject. Many of these issues are away from the core argument as should the roof at Carn Vellan be developed as a sport venue. I think that with all this feeling that a compromise could be found.

The future generations argument : There are four routes which have already been climbed i.e. already lost to future new routers.

The creep argument : Reinforce the current BMC policy stating no bolting on natural sea cliffs, therefore, no new routes to be bolted. As I understand there was no BMC policy on bolting sea cliffs when these routes were put up and retrospective chopping of routes would be against the precedent set by the BMC in other areas.

If the existing lines are re-bolted, the bolters should agree to remove/drill out and fill the old placements and thus causing the least environmental impact.

The result would be four hard sport routes, no more environmental impact on the crag actually less if the chopping mess is cleaned up. No creep of new bolts on Cornish or British sea cliffs. Everyone happy!!

I look forward to the meeting

James Strongman"

[SA Chris]

Is any cliff on Portland a natural sea cliff? Pen Trwyn? The Diamond? Ansteys? Arbroath? Cliffs in S Wales whose name eludes me?

Like toby said,

I am still waiting for anyone at all to articulate the "rules" of British bolting, consistent with all the currently-bolted venues, in less than 100 words or even a short paperback

By the way I think the Anvil is of similar steepness, but it's shist. Not that eitther fact would ahve any influence on decisions.

http://www.scottishclimbs.com/wiki/The_Anvil

[jstrongman]

what about St Bee's where trad and sport live together!!

[SA Chris]

Witches Point would be one. A bolted natural limestone sea-cliff on the same south Wales coastline (give or take a hundred miles) as the aggressively bolt-purged South Pembroke natural limestone sea-cliffs.

Forgot about Witches Point. Must be a full 5 miles from Ogmore, which is staunchly bolt free. I was thinking of the sport crags on Gower.

http://www.sportsclimbs.co.uk/mainpages/gower/Gower%20Index.htm some of which are quarries, some not.

[Andy W]

Witches Point would be one. A bolted natural limestone sea-cliff on the same south Wales coastline (give or take a hundred miles) as the aggressively bolt-purged South Pembroke natural limestone sea-cliffs.

Forgot about Witches Point. Must be a full 5 miles from Ogmore, which is staunchly bolt free. I was thinking of the sport crags on Gower.

http://www.sportsclimbs.co.uk/mainpages/gower/Gower%20Index.htm some of which are quarries, some not.

Witches point is about 500 yds from Ogmore.

I seem to remember a S.Wales bolt meeting years ago, discussing bolts on Gower. BMC said no, the crags got bolted anyway and now Gower or at least parts of Gower is a fairly established and recognised sport climbing.  destination

[SA Chris]

Ok 500 yards then.

[petejh]

Is any cliff on Portland a natural sea cliff? Pen Trwyn? The Diamond? Ansteys? Arbroath? Cliffs in S Wales whose name eludes me?

Pen trwyn, Lower Pen Trwyn, and The Diamond are completely natural seacliffs (seacliff in its broad sense for Pen Trwyn). Also, you could climb some of the hard sport routes on LPT using trad gear if you were so-inclined, but no-one seems to be bothered.
I was climbing at something that may be similar to Carn Vellan today (haven't been so just guessing) - Pigeons Cave on the Orme, fully upside-down sport routes on Quartzite/Sandstone/Limestone mix. Again if you really wanted to you could stuff cams in the many holes and slots there and call it E10 but really, why bother when it makes such totally brilliant sport climbing and this country already has such a wealth of top quality trad climbing?

[SA Chris]

Pen trwyn, Lower Pen Trwyn, and The Diamond are completely natural seacliffs

That was the point I was (trying) to make.

[granticus]

How did the meeting go?     Sorry, Couldn't make it down, due to wedding anniversary evening out..

Just how aggro did things get?

[Andy W]

The meeting itself, was initially quite oppositional, partly I guess as a result  the processes that the BMC has to abide by. The chair etc introduced themselves, then a guy who was 'BMC' gave a background to some of the issues and his first sentence included the words, 'bolts'  'ugly' and 'reared'. Not a good start.

It also transpired that the meeting was actually to decide what points/motions would go into the next meeting. This left quite a few people quite rightly a bit aggrieved.

After the meeting quite a few people went to the pub, healthy discussion and debate and I would say a better understanding achieved. The pub session included most of the main activators, if that the right word and they were all local.

[jcm]

So you people want to put bolts into Carn Vellan again.

Let me make you some presentational suggestions. You won’t like them, but since I’m a pretty adamant opponent of this kind of thing, and the people you have to persuade are me and people like me, they may help. Of course these ‘people like me’ may have entirely different buttons you need to press. Who knows? But at least you can press mine if you want.

First, you need to make a positive case. It’s already been said, but you need to stop this whining about how it’s not Fair and it’s your Right to go sport climbing and Everyone Else Can and Why Shouldn’t We and so forth. Plenty of reasons, but one among many is that it just makes me think, well, that’s all very well, but if we let a few ‘8b+’ sport routes or whatever go up what are we going to say – and what are bolters in general going to say – once the masses start saying it’s not Fair and it’s Elitist and why aren’t there any nice bolted 5+s in Penwith?

Second, you (and when I say you I mean your supporters as well) need to stop whining about the famous ‘car from Bristol’. When I hear bolters suggesting that people who care enough to drive 300 miles in order to vote shouldn’t be allowed to, it makes me want to get out my diary, mark the next meeting in red, affiliate my infant children to the BMC, and start scheduling a family long weekend in Cornwall.

Third, you absolutely need to stop whining about the previous chopping and the resulting mess that’s there at the moment. All this achieves is to remind me that bolters in general cannot be trusted to observe bolt agreements, and never, ever, ever clear up their own mess once it’s decided that their bolts shouldn’t have been placed. It makes me want to go out and buy a pair of bolt cutters just in case my side does lose the vote.

In fact, if you wanted to make a positive case, the best way you could start is by going there, abseiling down and taking the time to clear up what’s presently there. That would go a long way to demonstrating that you have some values beyond fighting for your Right to clip bolts on your doorstep at the grade you want.

Fourth, you don’t need me to tell you that you need to disassociate yourself entirely from the Edwardses. But you also need to stop your supporters (and yourselves indeed) bleating about how your opponents harp on about them. After all, climbs are more than pieces of rock; they have histories and for good or ill the Edwardses will be entwined in the history of these routes if they are reopened. Much of the opposition stems from the feeling – which I share – that the Edwardses’ efforts in Cornwall need to be written out of history as much as possible in order to demonstrate that cheats never prosper, and so forth. We’re not starting from a blank sheet of paper, and complaining that we should be pretending that we are just makes me think that those who support this notion do not share my values to an even greater degree than I already think, and makes me more inclined to get driving. As do personal attacks on those who oppose this sort of thing (which some of the comments on this thread flirt with). One of the reasons the Cornish debate is so bitter is the personal and public attacks bolters have made on the Cornish opponents in the past. Think Mick Ryan’s intro to Rockfax’s Welsh Limestone guide, for example. Des Hannigan rather nobly seems to have forgotten it, but I haven’t.

Lastly, you need to stop this pathetic sniping – I’m looking at you, Thesiger – about how bolt policy is ‘illogical’. It’s stupid (since when has it been desirable or practical than any human political affairs should proceed according to ‘logic’?), negative (what positive ‘logical’ alternative are you proposing?), snide and irritating (it carries with it the suggestion, not quite expressed, that opponents of bolting are illogical) and counter-productive (it merely reminds me that where we do have bolts on sea or mountain cliffs it happened because people didn’t move decisively enough to ensure it didn’t).