[wiain]

If these routes were cleaned up, properly bolted and received a few ascents then a lot of questions would be answered, a lot of bullshit would be cleared up and a line drawn under the whole sorry mess.

 

[jcm]

Well that's a useful analogy. I'm reasonably confident that planning decisions in Penzance aren't decided by people in Bristol and further afield either. And in terms of a national framework, to the extent that I understand it, the BMC isn't explicitly "anti-bolt". Clearly all that's needed, tedious though it would be, is some tighter definition of who and who isn't entitled to vote on this sort of stuff, based on location or whatever. I would expect postal votes for myself and all my family on the reasonable argument that I live abroad but got married in Cornwall ...
[/quote]

Planning decisions which are considered controversial or in breach of a national guideline are referred to outside inspectors all the time, Toby. But I don't think trying to map the 'system', such as it, for deciding these things in the climbing world precisely on to the planning system is very helpful.

And of course the BMC isn't anti-bolt. It's disgracefully pro-bolt. Whatever was your point?

As to the rest, this sort of negative carping is exactly the sort of fucking irritating thing I was talking about earlier, which tends to cement the view that all bolters are Mick Ryans. If you've got a better system, let's hear it.

And by the way your 'quotes' system sucks. It's too complicated.

[jcm]

>I was trying to suggest in my last two posts that the 'you' and 'them' is no longer appropriate.

Really?? 'He doesn't read, nor listen, nor think' was trying to suggest that? Funny, it sounded more like a binary slagging match to me.

[jcm]

JCM - are/were you ex-OUMC/at the Centenary Ball last year?

I find it so hard to understand why people feel so upset about the prospect of this crag having some sport routes. It seems so massively selfish.

I was, yes. Do I know you?

Evidently btw if you were at Oxford you didn't study philosophy, or you would know that our emotions are things we can't control and it is how we act on them that determines whether we are selfish or not.

And as to that, you see, when I contemplate those who want to bolt Carn Vellan, all I can hear is the shrill whine of 'I want. I want. I want.' Selfishness is in the eye of the beholder.

Do you consider that debolting The Big Issue, Red Rose, Gibson's Black Crag bolt route which Neil Dickson climbed free and the rope-access bolt ladder recently drilled in Parliament House Cave (to name a few pretty similar instances) and opposing bolting, for example, the Diamond wall at Bosigran was also 'massively selfish'?

[jcm]

Surely Medwards actions should be firmly and blatantly kept IN the record books as evidence of what should never have been done and should never be allowed to happen again?

I don't know a whole lot about this crag but what I do know is mired in the usual Medwards controversy and lies. If these routes were cleaned up, properly bolted and received a few ascents then a lot of questions would be answered, a lot of bullshit would be cleared up and a line drawn under the whole sorry mess. The record books would then show fact rather than lies and guesswork and there would be a nice crag for people to climb on rather than a disused lump of rock with some rotting metal stuck in it.

I think this would be a good thing.

I don't know that reopening the crag would clear anything up. Apart from your suspicion that Edwards' routes are overgraded, the main controversy and lies are about whether or not bolting the crag was clearly in breach of what had been agreed a year or two previously, and opening the crag isn't going to do anything about that.

I expressed myself badly before. I think the feeling is that if the crag is reopened that would be a vindication of the Edwardses vision in bolting it in the first place, (certainly they would think so), and would suggest that the bolts shouldn't have been chopped when they were. That's one more reason it's so important that supporters stop complaining about the debolting, and why it would be a powerful gesture (IMHO) if those who want to re-open the crag went and cleared it up properly first.

As to your overgrading theory, by the way, I saw some videos of 1980's Jerry the other day, and he didn't exactly look like Adam Ondra footworkwise either. I think even the very very good just weren't so good in those days.

[Sloper]

No Bolts till Bedtime.

I wanna fight for my right to fuck the crags up for the next generation party

Who'd want to see Lundy bolted, this is the thin end of the wedge, remember chalk?  Look at the misuse, the donkey lines, the caking of jugs with white powder. Remember the arguments about top roping? Well walk along an easily accessible grit crag tomorrow and see people 'headpointing' severes.

The difference is that these ills take longer for the symptoms to manifest themselves and are more easily ignored.

Bolting is categorically different and relies on solipsistic sophistry to justify the practice; no more so than in Cornwall.

I'm with John here. There's none so deaf as those that cannot hear reason.

[SA Chris]

the rope-access bolt ladder recently drilled in Parliament House Cave

Has it happened again? Or is this the incident in about 2005 you are referring to?

[jcm]

the rope-access bolt ladder recently drilled in Parliament House Cave

Has it happened again? Or is this the incident in about 2005 you are referring to?

No, 2005. Gosh, I must be getting old. It seems more recent.

However I do know that about three weeks ago when I did Lundy Calling, the classic Shorn Cliff E4, some cock jockey had effectively retroed it by putting up some poxy eliminate next door and being unable to get up it without placing a bolt clippable from the crux of LC.

[Sloper]

Sad times.

[Stu Littlefair]

And as to that, you see, when I contemplate those who want to bolt Carn Vellan, all I can hear is the shrill whine of 'I want. I want. I want.' Selfishness is in the eye of the beholder.

John,

And you say our stance is antagonistic? I'm finding it odd that you're whining about the tone of people on the other side of the argument and yet using rhetoric like this; usually you wouldn't put yourself in such a contradictory position so I'm going to assume you're genuinely angry. Fair enough. I hope we can still have some level of reasoned discussion.

I think one of the reasons the Medwards are so inflammatory in this issue is that, you're right; they would see the establishment as the bolting of CV as vindication of their actions at that crag. Maybe even justification for their actions in a wider sense too. Who knows. I don't know what to think about that. I do know that being conflated with them, however tangentially, fucks me off as much as the bolts-in-CV lobby seems to annoy you. There's a world of difference between what our generation is doing, and what they did. To pick the most obvious example, look how the pro-bolters have strived to achieve consensus, and respected that consensus even though we may have felt it was 'unfair'. In fact, this is a very good point; the let's-bolt-CV campaign may gripe about the 'car-from-bristol' but still respected the outcome of that meeting. Don't we get any credit for that?

Anyway; I think I said a lot earlier in this thread that I don't see this as a discussion that can bear much fruit. The anti-bolt lobby have a reasonable case; the climbing world is changing. Climbers today are becoming more risk-averse and less reverential towards the natural environment. Bolting has played it's part in that and the 'thin-end-of-the-wedge' is being inserted slowly but surely. There is more and more demand for low-grade sport climbing and more and more of it available; who knows where it will go left unchecked?

Seen in that light, bolting CV is a controversial act. On the other hand, the crag is already a mess, so the environmental damage is already done. Isn't it just plain inefficient use of resources not to allow sport climbing on CV?

My own personal views on this are changing slowly over time. I see the argument as one between two user groups competing for the same resource, but with the added complication that the user groups are not mutually exclusive. Perhaps lessons can be learnt from other, similar, conflicts? We can accept that John's arguments are sound; that bolting CV has negative consequences for the environment and will contribute to changing climbing even if only a tiny bit. And we can still argue that it will equally have positive consequences; it will contribute to the enjoyment of the area for locals and visitors alike. Pros and Cons.

I'm more worried about reaching compromise on this because otherwise the changes happening in climbing will make things more fractious. In turn, that will only accelerate confrontation. With that in mind, maybe, on balance, CV shouldn't be bolted. Equally, perhaps we should refrain from referring to people with different ideas of what climbing is as cock-jockeys?

[jcm]

Toby, this is a stupid conversation. So far as I can gather, you don't like the way we presently resolve these questions. Fine. Either you suggest a better way - which you refuse to - or you have nothing to say, and you're merely trying to be irritating. So far as I can tell, it's the latter.

[slackline]

Evidently btw if you were at Oxford you didn't study philosophy, or you would know that our emotions are things we can't control and it is how we act on them that determines whether we are selfish or not.

You've been very confrontational since your first post, and picking at people in this manner does nothing to encourage people to listen to you.  Its clearly a highly emotive subject for you which is why...

And as to that, you see, when I contemplate those who don't want to bolt Carn Vellan, all I can hear is the shrill whine of 'I want. I want. I want.' Selfishness is in the eye of the beholder.

..this sounds somewhat self-referential if the above highlighted word is inserted.

Others sound far more open to discussion and a resolution than yourself.

[jcm]

You've been very confrontational since your first post, and picking at people in this manner does nothing to encourage people to listen to you.  Its clearly a highly emotive subject for you which is why...

Being called 'massively selfish' is an emotive subject for me, certainly.

And as to that, you see, when I contemplate those who don't want to bolt Carn Vellan, all I can hear is the shrill whine of 'I want. I want. I want.' Selfishness is in the eye of the beholder.

..this sounds somewhat self-referential if the above highlighted word is inserted.

Others sound far more open to discussion and a resolution than yourself.

They're more open to the resolution they want, certainly. With the exception of Stu, I haven't seen much acknowledgement of the other side's point of view.

[jcm]

Bloody hell. Your quotes system really sucks. Do you have a way of modifying posts?

[jcm]

Stu

I am angry. For one small thing I don't like being called selfish, and I don't like people who tell me I don't hear or listen or read. Nor do I like people who tell me I'm being antagonistic when I reply to such abuse and turn out to be able to dish out better expressed abuse than those who started it (see, look how playground we can all get if we try).

You're right that the CV pro-bolters get a lot of credit from me for going about it right (although bolters in general are no more honest and open today than the Edwardses were; look at the retroing of Paradise Lost or Heading the Shot, or the Lakes bolt fund's secret campaign for bolted abseil stations in the Lakes, or the constant stream of undiscussed bolts that keep appearing outside approved areas, like the recent anonymous retroing of Giantslayer at Swanage, or the Tyn Towyn quarries, or the Broad Stand or Castell Helen abseil bolts which appeared, etc, etc.). Toby is presently doing his best to dissipate that credit, but personally that's the only thing that's stopping me from simply thinking that I'll just go down there and vote against and if they win I'll just go and cut their bolts.

Your comment about inefficient use of resources highlights precisely the gulf between us (as you know, of course). To me, the countryside is not a resource we should be exploiting. It's a beautiful place which it's a privilege to go out and explore, and we should be careful to leave it as we found it so far as we can. To me, sticking a line of bolts up a cliff because you can't climb it otherwise is simply ludicrous, exactly on a level with leaving crisp packets behind. Most climbers feel like this to a greater or lesser degree; that's why we don't bolt Stanage (or seacliffs in general), but some more strongly than others, and those are the ones who don't like bolts (on the whole; of course there are other considerations). So you can see that being called selfish by those we regard as litter-droppers isn't helpful. Whereas you of course accept that the desire to bolt CV is selfish, indeed you said so in your own submissions last time. So I'm a bit surprised you object to me pointing it out, although obviously I could have said it more nicely.

Now, obviously not everyone feels like that and I have to respect that, and that means as you say some form of compromise. Which is more or less what we have at the moment (nationally; obviously there is no compromise available over CV). This is why Toby's sniping is so damaging and unhelpful; it raises the possibility (well, the fact, actually) that some bolters feel they should be able to do whatever they like. And once that happens, well then hey, I'll just cut your ****ing bolts, and we'll see how we go. Bolters breach the agreements all the time, so why shouldn't I?

I agree thoroughly with your final paragraph; whatever happens we should try and play nicely. That's why I posted in the first place; it would be desirable if bolters generally and at CV in particular ceased expressing (or better still, holding, but expressing would do) the views I listed, which are hugely inflammatory and also unnecessary. For example, rereading Barnaby Carver's submissions last time, they committed every single political error I mentioned, as well as being more or less a pack of lies from beginning to end. Rereading his slagging off those who chopped the bolts in the first place, in conjunction of course with his call for a fresh start, absolutely infuriated me. If all bolters had your intelligence and honesty, we'd all be a lot better off.

The final reason I'm angry, of course, is because I know the bolters will win at Carn Vellan in the end; maybe this time, certainly eventually. It'll be sad, a landmark victory for bolters generally - the first cliff that has been (more or less) consensually debolted and then rebolted, I think? - but, as I say, one has to compromise. I could live with that - obviously they have a case, as you say, even if I don't agree with it - if they were just to display a little more grace. As you say, winning won't do them much good if they infuriate people so much the bolts get chopped anyway, and I don't think that's an impossible outcome, in fact I know it's not.

[jcm]

That reminds me, by the way, what happened to the vote about Simon Young's bolts on the culm? A wild guess says they were either forgotten about and never approved, or else deplored and since SY naturally didn't take them out nobody else did either. But go on, surprise me, someone.

[lagerstarfish]

Do you have a way of modifying posts?

There is a time limit for modifying posts. Not sure how long it is? A little "modify" button will be at the top right corner of the post - next the "quote" one, ironically.

Bloody hell. Your quotes system really sucks

It does, however, cause much amusement.


*edit*

Interesting thread, by the way, lads (I assume it's only blokes getting involved). Glad I'm not involved, but still interesting.

[lagerstarfish]

or you would know that our emotions are things we can't control

Shhh. Don't let the CBT Mafia hear you saying things like that.

On a serious note; he's right. I read the same thing in a journal at my doctor's. Cosmopolitan Magazine I think it was called.

I'm not having a go at you, jcm, just amusing myself on a dreary, damp day.

[GCW]

Nice and sunny over here, Lagers.   

[lagerstarfish]

Fuck you GCW

I am so angered by your statement that I am contemplating driving over to your crag and pouring buckets of Peak rain over the holds

[SA Chris]

If it's any concession, it's shite here too, but that's par for the course. I did just have a nice bowl of Heinz tomato soup though, so not all bad.

[GCW]

Fuck you GCW

I am so angered by your statement that I am contemplating driving over to your crag and pouring buckets of Peak rain over the holds
[/quote][/quote]

We don't want any of your fUKCing Peak rain over here.  If you're insistent on trying to export your precipitation, then we need some agreement as to what crags your filthy rain can be poured upon.  Preferably the quarries that are already fUKCed up and ruined already.  Some would say there's no place for Peak fUKCing rain in Lancashire at all, and to be honest I'm coming around to that point of view although some people in Australia say Peak rain in Lancs is a good plan.

[shark]

Your comment about inefficient use of resources highlights precisely the gulf between us (as you know, of course). To me, the countryside is not a resource we should be exploiting. It's a beautiful place which it's a privilege to go out and explore, and we should be careful to leave it as we found it so far as we can. To me, sticking a line of bolts up a cliff because you can't climb it otherwise is simply ludicrous, exactly on a level with leaving crisp packets behind. Most climbers feel like this to a greater or lesser degree; that's why we don't bolt Stanage (or seacliffs in general), but some more strongly than others, and those are the ones who don't like bolts (on the whole; of course there are other considerations). So you can see that being called selfish by those we regard as litter-droppers isn't helpful.

If I can pick up on this point I think this represents an overly precious view of the countryside (not untypical of townies). It also doesnt have the ring of truth given the pegs, tat and dare I say it chockstones left by trad climbers not to mention the gardening that goes on to unearth routes or even whole crags - all visually altering the rock in a litter-like manner. Both sport and trad climbs are artefactual. Sometimes that has visual consequences sometimes not. The visual aspect is a minor one in stirring emotion. Bolts are rarely easily picked out by the non-climber unless they are pointed to in the right direction. Its the climber who will pick them out and their visual impact will raise hairs on the back of the neck (of the anti-bolter) because of what they represent far more than as a pure eyesore. Chalk is many times over the most apparent visual pollution but embraced by sport and trad climbers alike.   

[tomtom]

or you would know that our emotions are things we can't control

If you're having difficulty with emotions, there are plenty of groups offering advice out there:

Hindu's: http://www.hinduwebsite.com/selfdevt/mental/emotions.asp
Christians: http://christianhipster.blogspot.com/2009/01/i-cant-control-my-emotions.html
Ex Christians: http://www.ex-christian.net/index.php?/topic/37099-you-cant-control-emotions/

Actually, the last one had some interesting quotes:

Say you are in an argument with one of those eebil atheists and the atheist gets you very angry because he is insulting the one and only Flying Spaghetti Monster. Would you agree that you are genuinely angry? Do you agree that you probably want to say and do things to that person that probably aren't morally right? (I mean really angry) like you want to bash his face through the wall or start insulting him back? How do you turn down your anger? YOU DON'T

Blimey! Dont fuck with the Flying Spaghetti Monster!

[Jaspersharpe]

As to your overgrading theory, by the way, I saw some videos of 1980's Jerry the other day, and he didn't exactly look like Adam Ondra footworkwise either. I think even the very very good just weren't so good in those days.

Oh dear. You might want to have a think about this statement and come back when you realise it is the biggest load of total bollocks spouted on this forum in a long time (even including Sloper's political stuff).

You are seriously comparing serial overgrader, liar, chipper, cheat and bullshit artist Medwards with Jerry (and every other top climber from that era)? Fuck's sake everyone knows that Jerry was far from the most stylish climber but that is just unexpurgated nonsense of the highest order.

I'm not going to bother reading any more of your ranting as if you can get something as fundamental as this so very very wrong then you obviously don't really understand much about climbing at all.