[Neil F]

I last bouldered outdoors in 1983, and I have never specifically trained finger strength. I have only bouldered indoors on 4 or 5 occasions (ever), at least 2 of which resulted in finger injuries (pulled tendons).

Predictably, this lack of commitment means I am somewhat lacking in finger strength.

I therefore try to avoid fingery routes, and the harder climbs I have done have never been of the fingery type.  If I do try a hard, fingery route (and manage to avoid actually pulling a tendon), my fingers often feel stiff and “creaky” afterwards.

Anyway, against my better judgement, I have spent quite a lot of time in the last couple of weeks, trying a particularly fingery little pitch at Raven Tor – which I finally dragged my reluctant body up last night – and as a result, this morning my fingers are feeling very, very “creaky” – much worse than normal.  I don’t feel like I have pulled a tendon – more that I have “strained” several.  I certainly don’t feel like I could go climbing tonight – not even on easy routes.

I’m seeking 2 specific pieces of advice from the clinic today:-

-   is there anything I should be doing to alleviate the immediate situation? – ie. to relieve the creakiness in my fingers

-   does anyone have any suggestions for a gentle training regime aimed specifically at improving finger strength?  It would need to suit someone who won’t/can’t go bouldering, is susceptible to injury (or is it hypochondria?) and is inherently lazy when it comes to structured climbing training (beyond going down the wall in the winter, to do a bunch of routes and have a laugh with my mates)?

I did wonder about the “punter’s” Beastmaker, but I don’t really know anything about them.  Do you have to do pull ups on them (of limited appeal), or do some of the training regimes involve just hanging there (which I can get my head around more readily)?  And if I was to get a Beastmaker, and could motivate myself to hang from it, would my fingers get stronger, or would they just swell up and become creakier than ever?

Any thoughts much appreciated (and apologies in advance for not having read through all / any previous threads, where the answers are doubtless already to be found!).

Thanks

Neil

[Scraggadoo]

-   is there anything I should be doing to alleviate the immediate situation? – ie. to relieve the creakiness in my fingers

Rest.  When it's not so creaky ease back in with some easy routes.

-   does anyone have any suggestions for a gentle training regime aimed specifically at improving finger strength?  It would need to suit someone who won’t/can’t go bouldering, is susceptible to injury (or is it hypochondria?) and is inherently lazy when it comes to structured climbing training (beyond going down the wall in the winter, to do a bunch of routes and have a laugh with my mates)?

Basically do what you like if you're lazy when it comes to structured training.  No point in giving advice if you ain't going to follow it.  Just take rests after you've worked your fingers climbing.

Not terribly helpful but this does work.  If you want to get super strong fingers either commit to a structured regime or go bouldering regurlarly on fingery stuff.

Susceptibility to injury is telling you something.  Lack of preparation / not resting enough / hydration / not knowing when to stop.  Could be anything!

[chris05]

Expect some puntering for your last sentence:

"Any thoughts much appreciated (and apologies in advance for not having read through all / any previous threads, where the answers are doubtless already to be found!)"

Hopefully you will get replies from someone more experienced than myself but I'd have thought icing following climbing might help as might some stretching/massaging/warming up of the fingers before and after climbing.

Many of the fingerboard training regime's involve 'dead-hanging' and i find if you work with a stopwatch and keep a record of what you manage, its quite enjoyable (in a masochistic way!). See the beastmaker and i think its the works website for regimes depending upon your level. However in my untrained/unqualified opinion the creakyness of which you speak is probably not going to be helped by greater finger strength although climbing ability might be.

[chris05]

Here's the link:

http://www.climbingworks.com/download/files/Articles/beastmaker_fingerboard_article.pdf

[dave]

Creaky feeling fingers are par for a the course after a fingery (crimpy) session, i wouldn't worry about it too much. It shows you've had a good session, and if you're not injured then you're winning.

[Stu Littlefair]

Neil,

it's well worth spending some time today icing the fingers. Put them in a jug of water with 3-4 ice cubes for 20 mins or so, and do that a couple of times today. They should feel much better in the morning

[John Gillott]

At the risk of teaching my grandmother... it sounds like you need to get them used to it. So, since bouldering as such is out, maybe 'bouldering on a string'?, ie hard cruxy routes, rather like the one that gave you the creaky fingers? You could make that the activity down the wall rather than doing the kinds of route that you usually do.

[Johnny Brown]

It would need to suit someone who won’t/can’t go bouldering, is susceptible to injury (or is it hypochondria?) and is inherently lazy when it comes to structured climbing training

Forget a beastmaker then. If you think pull-ups are boring I struggle to see how dead-hanging would be better.

Sounds to me like you're doing the right thing already. Do a bit more fingery climbing than normal, but don't overdo it.

[Neil F]

Thanks for your initial feedback everyone.  Please keep it coming!

Basically do what you like if you're lazy when it comes to structured training.  No point in giving advice if you ain't going to follow it.  Just take rests after you've worked your fingers climbing.

Fair comment, Scraggadoo, but I was really just trying to give a proper context / history to where I am now.  It was more "I have never done structured training in my life (which might be down to laziness!) rather than "I don't want to consider structured training".  So some encouragement / pointers on how to start would be appreciated, in the context that it would be for a beginner to such a world (albeit one who has been regularly shimmying up the occasional route for the last 30+ years).

Here's the link:
http://www.climbingworks.com/download/files/Articles/beastmaker_fingerboard_article.pdf

That's amazing - thanks Chris!  I had no idea such information existed!  Has anyone tried these regimes from a fairly low (finger strength) base, and made real gains (without injury)?

it's well worth spending some time today icing the fingers. Put them in a jug of water with 3-4 ice cubes for 20 mins or so, and do that a couple of times today. They should feel much better in the morning

I'll definitely do that, Stu.  Thanks for the advice.
Does everyone just stick to iced water, or is alternate ice and hot recommended?

Forget a beastmaker then. If you think pull-ups are boring I struggle to see how dead-hanging would be better.

It's not so much that I think they are boring, more that my shoulders don't like them (or didn't when I last tried 20 years ago!).
I can obviously carry on as I am, but was really wanting to investigate ways to improve finger strength, perhaps during the winter, so my occasional forays onto fingery stuff in the summer felt less "uncomfortable".  Hence the second question in my OP.

Creaky feeling fingers are par for a the course after a fingery (crimpy) session, i wouldn't worry about it too much. It shows you've had a good session, and if you're not injured then you're winning.

Thanks Dave - I'm actually quite encouraged by that.


If people have a hard fingery session, and their fingers feel a bit creaky afterwards, apart from doing some ice treatment, how long would you expect to rest before returning to the fray?

Cheers

Neil

[dave]

I think alternating ice-hot can be risky cos you can bust bloodvessels in/under the skin if you're not careful. I've recently been doing some icing for a finger niggle and seems to be doing the trick.

[chris05]

There's more here:

http://www.beastmaker.co.uk/training%20page2.htm

and 16 pages here:

http://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,10876.0.html

I'm a punter but quite enjoy training. I've had my beastmaker for about 8 months, I noticed real gains for the first 6 but then got injured    Interestingly not on the fingerboard and I'm now returning to it slowly. As with climbing itself you can expect to make quite big gains initially before the plateau hits and further gains take a long time (due to the time that tendons take to get stronger).

[grimer]

I've got one of those squeezy North Face tennis ball-sized jobbys in my car and often use it the morning after climbing just to very gently get blood around the joints again. Low committment and quite gentle.

I also got a Beastmaker to help with weak fingers too. I find it not too boring, especially as my attitude to it is just to switch off my brain and just let the clock be the master. I think if you are looking for something like the kinaesthetic rewards of the crux of White Wand to come from the two finger pocket, and they are simply not there.

I believe using it has helped me.

[Ru]

- Don't actually know what I'm talking about alert -

I think that the natural lubricant in joints (there must be a more technical term), is only produced when the joint is moved. If you are doing a lot of crimping on similar holds you're basically crushing the joint together without  doing much/enough finger movement to lubricate the joints. My fingers always feel much better after a hard crimping session if I consciously remember to wiggle my fingers throughout the day, and afterwards.

Maybe someone who actually knows what they're talking about could verify this as a thoery?

[slackline]

the natural lubricant in joints (there must be a more technical term), is only produced when the joint is moved.

Synovial fluid and its there all the time as its constantly replaced by secretion, although putting pressure on the joint may force the fluid out of certain key areas and result in "creaky" finger-syndrome (pure conjecture I know nothing about how joints work).


Just give your knuckles a good crack, that'll sort 'em

[Scraggadoo]

 

Thanks for your initial feedback everyone.  Please keep it coming!

Basically do what you like if you're lazy when it comes to structured training.  No point in giving advice if you ain't going to follow it.  Just take rests after you've worked your fingers climbing.

Fair comment, Scraggadoo, but I was really just trying to give a proper context / history to where I am now.  It was more "I have never done structured training in my life (which might be down to laziness!) rather than "I don't want to consider structured training".  So some encouragement / pointers on how to start would be appreciated, in the context that it would be for a beginner to such a world (albeit one who has been regularly shimmying up the occasional route for the last 30+ years).

In that case I retract my previous post - advice as others have suggested and linked to are all along the lines of what you should be considering... 

In any case, I too have experienced creaky fingers in the past - essentially I think my fingers were just playing catch up.  For example I might have been climbing quite hard for about 5 – 6 weeks doing bouldering, and then my fingers started to creak a bit (to the point where it hurts sometimes doing normal activities).  I usually take a rest for a week doing easy stuff to give my fingers a break (and myself as well) so that they can recover a bit.  If you’ve been doing something similar (bouldering on a string) it might be worthwhile considering taking a week off the gas.  Climbers who are training often take a week off the gas to recharge their batteries after a phase of 6 – 8 weeks training / climbing hard.

[Ru]

Synovial fluid and its there all the time as its constantly replaced by secretion, although putting pressure on the joint may force the fluid out of certain key areas and result in "creaky" finger-syndrome (pure conjecture I know nothing about how joints work).

It says in that Wikipedia article that the fluid is squeezed out mechanically onto the joint surface during movement. And Wikipedia is never wrong.

Plus it says that synovial fluid is non-newtonian. I wonder if it gets less fluid when force is applied? That would be clever.

[slackline]

Synovial fluid and its there all the time as its constantly replaced by secretion, although putting pressure on the joint may force the fluid out of certain key areas and result in "creaky" finger-syndrome (pure conjecture I know nothing about how joints work).

It says in that Wikipedia article that the fluid is squeezed out mechanically onto the joint surface during movement. And Wikipedia is never wrong.

  ask someone who knows (haven't seen GCW posting for a few days).  To be pedantic (ooh, there's a surprise) it states that the fluid is secreted from the synovial membrane into the cavity formed by the membrane around the joint, this disipates throughout this cavity forming a thin layer and is absrobed into the micro-cavities of cartilage of the bones joints and it is this absorbed fluid that is then forced back out into the cavity during joint movement.

The discussion section has a link to a 1963 paper on the theoretical analysis of joint lubrication.

Plus it says that synovial fluid is non-newtonian. I wonder if it gets less fluid when force is applied? That would be clever.

Make some custard and punch it to see if it gets more or less fluid with increased pressure. 

[dave]

Make some custard and punch it

gotta be a euphemism there.

[Fultonius]

Synoivial fluid is apparently a thixotropic fluid, which means the viscosity is pressure-independant but the viscosity does change if pressure is applied over a long period of time.

I.e. the fluid will be very stiff for impulse loads, but relatively "fluid" if pressure is applied slowly.

Ergo, hard crimping for sustained period is likely to force the fluid out, leading to bone-on-bone contact.







Possibly. 

[Norton Sharley]

Neil,

My only qualification to answer your query is being, nearly, as old as yourself and having 'creaky' fingers.  I don't find my fingers are so much of a problem in the summer when it's warmer and I do more routes than bouldering.  My age on the other hand is a problem all year round.  I avoid limestone routes with horrible little holds as far as possible to avoid aggravating old injuries of which I have had quite a few (pullled main and lateral tendons).  When bouldering in winter, and training on boards, I find taking glucosamine sulphate definately helps.  I know some people don't believe in the stuff but I have done reasonably controlled tests taking it for a month and then not.  The general feeling of creaking joints is far lessened when taking it.  I see it a bit like having a fancy bouldering pad - what price your ankles / knees / joints?  After all it can't do any harm.  (Cue series of posts on the harm of taking glucosamine......).  For what it's worth I also very rarely use tape to reinforce my fingers these days, I find it only aggravates injury (cue series of posts regarding my crap taping technique ......).  I also naturally (from years of climbing) have pretty good finger strength, whatever that means.

Nic

[Ru]

Plus it says that synovial fluid is non-newtonian. I wonder if it gets less fluid when force is applied? That would be clever.

Make some custard and punch it to see if it gets more or less fluid with increased pressure. 

Yes, custard is one sort of non-newtonian fluid, but I think there are different types. I think you can get ones that become more fluid under pressure as well

[duncan]

Synovial fluid is thixotropic, like non-drip paint, it gets thinner when stirred or if you wiggle your fingers.  Synovial fluid gets into joint cartilage by imbibition .  As you compress cartilage, the fluid gets squeezed out, as the pressure reduces it flows back in again.  Synovial fluid transports oxygen and nutrients into cartilage so intermittent compression and movement is good for joints, sustained compression with not much movement is not so good for them.

Which means Neil needs move his fingers a lot after any crimping or dead-hanging (which he probably knew anyway...).

Glucosomine didn't do anything for my achey joints and gave me the runs.  Plenty of people swear by it.  It is a little too untested for my liking, there are theoretical reasons why it might contribute to Dupuytren's contracture and the odd anecdotal report.  No real scientific evidence either way as yet.  Fish oil might be worth a try. 

Ice works really well for me, the sooner the better after activity.  I have taken to carrying a thermos flask of the stuff to the crag (in my defense, I suspect I have a longer drive home than most of you lot).

[Neil F]

Well, there's some really good advice here - thanks one and all (and please feel free to keep it coming).

I'm heartened to learn that the concept of "creaky" fingers isn't only mine!

I have been sitting here clenching and unclenching my fingers, and this has definitely helped.  (I will deploy this at the crag now, too).

I am already taking glucosamine (+ cod liver oil) - have been for a few years now - and this definitely helps my other ailments(!).

I don't use finger tape either, Nic.  And one thing I learnt years ago is the best way to recover from pulled tendons (pulled as opposed to snapped, you understand!) is to keep climbing - albeit on big holds.  Stopping completely is neither necessary nor beneficial (in my experience) though it is a few years since I've pulled a finger tendon badly.

That said, I am going to take a few days off to let this creakiness subside.  Anyone who catches me at the Tor before the weekend is free to admonish me.

And finally I am now going home to plunge my hands into a jug of iced water (as I obviously should have done last night, but didn't).

Cheers!

[chris05]

I believe yoga is excellent for improving finger strength, avoiding creekyness and generally looking good at the climbing wall..... 

[SA Chris]

I think alternating ice-hot can be risky cos you can bust bloodvessels in/under the skin if you're not careful. I've recently been doing some icing for a finger niggle and seems to be doing the trick.

I think that icing and then allowing to return to normal temp and then repeating is OK though.

Also wrapping your hand around a glass containing iced liquid is good, especially if you warm the fingers in the sun of a beer garden intermittently,