[Johnny Brown]

Wow. What a load of uninformed shite!

Most climbers have bad posture. Most climbers are not as flexible as they could/ should be. Most climbers have muscle imbalances that lead to shoulder/ elbow problems. Most climbers have poor core strength. Yoga helps with all these. Most climbers would benefit from doing some.

[Norton Sharley]

 

I suppose what works for one man doesn't for another.  But I bet if you did a load of yoga you'd benefit from it Lund.  And not just spiritually 

[Johnny Brown]

I should add I find yoga really tedious, but doing it enables me to climb more and at a higher level. I'd never do it for its own sake.

[Lund]

Wow. What a load of uninformed shite!

Most climbers have bad posture. Most climbers are not as flexible as they could/ should be. Most climbers have muscle imbalances that lead to shoulder/ elbow problems. Most climbers have poor core strength. Yoga helps with all these. Most climbers would benefit from doing some.

OK, I'll bite.

You can't simply state a load of stuff and then say "thing X cures it".  What kind of argument is that?  You can't expect to convince me like that, surely?

Let's take the core strength one.
- the premise is bobbins.  Most climbers have excellent core strength - they just need to improve it to get better.  Don't believe me?  Next time you do a pull up, try and work out how much core strength you're using; you'll be surprised I bet.
- I don't see how yoga is the best way to build core strength.  Or even a good way.  If I do some digging on core strengthening on the interweb, which is always right as we know, yoga doesn't come up.  (Or at least, it didn't before I got bored looking.)

I have done yoga.  I'm not bad at it, if I say so myself.  But I gave up because it was wasting my time - when my aim was to get good at climbing.

P.S. in a previous post, I said I disagreed with shark - when in fact I mean to put agree.  Yoga's fine, and if you like it, more power to your elbow.  But it your goal is climbing, well, you're wasting your time and should do something else.  Unless you really like it and get some zen powers climbing hard trad.  Which is way cool if so, and would make me take it up again.

[Lund]

  If you are doing yoga at the expense of climbing or training training then it might hinder your climbing performance but otherwise its a beneficial active rest option especially for those with cores of jelly, the chronically inflexible, the posturally contorted and the muscularly imbalanced - and most of us fall into at least one of those categories. Accepted there are alternatives to yoga to deal with those issues.

See, I don't agree.

Should have put that I DO agree with this - or at least mostly.  Sorry shark.  Playing fast and loose with the keyboard in my excitement.

- if you do at the expense of training, you'll get shit
- it's a decent active rest (and I'd emphasise that)
- there are lots of alternatives (and I'd say they were better).

[chris05]

OK, I'll bite.

You can't simply state a load of stuff and then say "thing X cures it".  What kind of argument is that?  You can't expect to convince me like that, surely?

I'm not sure you are in a position to criticise other people's arguments after your previous statements:

"Fact is though, they DO climb like shit.  All of them.  I don't know a single decent climber who does yoga.
That doesn't mean there aren't any, but it strongly suggests that those that do probably aren't good because of the yoga".

[Lund]

OK, I'll bite.

You can't simply state a load of stuff and then say "thing X cures it".  What kind of argument is that?  You can't expect to convince me like that, surely?

I'm not sure you are in a position to criticise other people's arguments after your previous statements:

"Fact is though, they DO climb like shit.  All of them.  I don't know a single decent climber who does yoga.
That doesn't mean there aren't any, but it strongly suggests that those that do probably aren't good because of the yoga".

What's wrong with that?

Two groups that go to the wall A and B

group A does yoga, and is uniformly shite
group B does not do yoga, and is not uniformly shite

Therefore... yoga makes you shite?

I feel like I'm trying to convince a truck load of born again Christians that there is not God.

[chris05]

OK, I'll bite.

You can't simply state a load of stuff and then say "thing X cures it".  What kind of argument is that?  You can't expect to convince me like that, surely?

I'm not sure you are in a position to criticise other people's arguments after your previous statements:

"Fact is though, they DO climb like shit.  All of them.  I don't know a single decent climber who does yoga.
That doesn't mean there aren't any, but it strongly suggests that those that do probably aren't good because of the yoga".

What's wrong with that?

Two groups that go to the wall A and B

group A does yoga, and is uniformly shite
group B does not do yoga, and is not uniformly shite

Therefore... yoga makes you shite?

I feel like I'm trying to convince a truck load of born again Christians that there is not God.

I dont do yoga, I tried it and found that I'd need to devote quite a lot of time to it to get much better and so decided to spend my time trying to climb more. I like the way you are trying to compare your observations to an experiment with groups and everything (!). Firstly I'm afraid I don't believe that these two groups exist (happy to agree to differ on this) and secondly, you cannot say that its the yoga which is causing the shiteness, it could be any number of factors. Anyway I dont want to get embroiled in a silly internet argument, I was just surprised to see you criticise someone else's arguments when your own are not that strong.

rant over!

[Johnny Brown]

Lund, your main point seems to be that most climbers who go to the wall are shit. You don't need to do yoga to climb hard, I think that is obvious. Many people find it helpful, though you haven't met them. Did you watch the Yuji vid? Maybe try conducting your idiotic surveys at 'the crag' sometime. Its like the wall, but outdoors.

[slackline]

OK, I'll bite.

You can't simply state a load of stuff and then say "thing X cures it".  What kind of argument is that?  You can't expect to convince me like that, surely?

I'm not sure you are in a position to criticise other people's arguments after your previous statements:

"Fact is though, they DO climb like shit.  All of them.  I don't know a single decent climber who does yoga.
That doesn't mean there aren't any, but it strongly suggests that those that do probably aren't good because of the yoga".

What's wrong with that?

Two groups that go to the wall A and B

group A does yoga, and is uniformly shite
group B does not do yoga, and is not uniformly shite

Therefore... yoga makes you shite?

I feel like I'm trying to convince a truck load of born again Christians that there is not God.

The problem is that groups A and B are not mutually exclusive, because you are assuming (implicitly, even if its not what you meant to do) that because group B don't bust some yoga out before climbing at the wall when you see them that they don't do any yoga.  Its entirely possible that they use it as active rest and do yoga when they're not at the wall for you to oggle them, and that as a consequence they've got better flexibility etc. etc.

[Johnny Brown]

And even if there is a correlation, I'd like to hear Lund's theory for the causation he so boldy implies.

[slackline]

And even if there is a correlation, I'd like to hear Lund's theory for the causation he so boldy implies.

 

[Lund]

My theory: they start crap, see loads of fancy pants people doing yoga, and spend time they need to be climbing and training doing yoga instead of climbing and training.  The yoga displaces the work they need to put in to not be shit.

This is point A.

Point B is that there are much better things to do than yoga if you're after cross training, or recovery training, or whatever.

I understand that there are exceptions to every rule.  That the chap in the video can be ace despite doing yoga.  In much the same way that bolt can break the world record after eating chicken mcnuggets.

I also understand that when people start saying shit like "oooh, maybe you should go to a CRAG" that their arguments are weak.  I'm not going to spit out my fucking climbing CV except to say that I've been to a few outdoor venues, and that for the record, I have done some stuff on grit.

[Paul B]

I have to say that if I take one climber I know, lets call him 'R' and I'll be 'P'. R is much better at rockovers than 'P' simply because of his hips being opened up during yoga.

There are lots of issues as JB has rightly pointed out that are seemingly adressed by yoga. You only have to look at 'diet training and injuries' to confirm that these kind of injuries are prolific withing UKB. Yes there are better (or other) ways of addressing core strength, flexibility and posture but this doesn't mean yoga isn't a worthy addition to some peoples training.
Obviously replacing all of your training with supplementary exercises such as yoga is foolish but so too is ignoring areas of weakness or imbalance, shirley?

I know I'd benefit.

[meatball]

Lund, do you mean that people who are starting out climbing should not do yoga because it will only compound their 'shitness'? Or on a more general level, that people who have a good base of experience will not benefit from Yoga? (not meaning said people do any less climbing, just doing Yoga to supplement their usual routine)

[a dense loner]

my opinion was meant for the real world where the 20 or so people i've seen at the wall doing yoga were shit, this is good enough stats to get in an advert so its good enough for ukb. i apologise to yuji, who has been at the top of his game for 20 years

[Johnny Brown]

My theory: they start crap, see loads of fancy pants people doing yoga, and spend time they need to be climbing and training doing yoga instead of climbing and training.

My theory: these people who annoy you so much are not climbing to get good, or strong, they just do it as a bit of healthy exercise. As they do yoga. If you don't want to get annoyed, perhaps get a fucking grip, or try a wall with a more serious clientele. You know the type - they're strong as fuck, but don't believe in stretching, and are shit outside but that's all going to change when they finish this training cycle... you'd fit right in I'm sure.

I have done yoga.  I'm not bad at it, if I say so myself

Sound like you really grasped the point of it too.

I'm not going to spit out my fucking climbing CV except to say that I've been to a few outdoor venues, and that for the record, I have done some stuff on grit.

But you've never met a good climber who does yoga. Or at least not one who does it in front of you. You've assumed the rest.

That the chap in the video can be ace despite doing yoga

Hilarious. Yuji, good DESPITE doing yoga.

[Somebody's Fool]

Lund. Have you recently been dumped by a yoga teacher?

[Dolly]

Lund. Have you recently been dumped by a yoga teacher?

  LOL

Lund you say

Most climbers have excellent core strength

Funnily enough I always thought that I'd got pretty good core strength- I'm 45 and I've been climbing for a long time and I just assumed that because I could climb OK and was thin and all that, that it wasn't an issue for me. Since knackering my back I've learned that I've only got good core strength in specific areas.
I learned that I have overdeveloped lats (in common with a lot of climbers) and that I use these to sit up from a chair (for example) rather than relying on deeper core muscles - therefore the core muscles that would be otherwise used for this relatively straightforward activity are underdeveloped. (I understand that this is a known phenomenon) In one sense the body is quite simple and just chooses the path of least resistance. If its lats are strong then it will use those -why bother with the other "weaker muscles.

Maybe there's more to this than first meets the eye/back ?

[Carnage]

Back on topic, I used to suffer from lower back pain alot and after assessment, got put on a set of very basic pilates exercises by my physio.  I thought I had a pretty strong core but after getting utterly schooled by her on some of the simple core strength tests, I realised that I had a few deficiencies.
I have now done these excercises religiously for the last 8 weeks and my back has started to show a marked improvement. I am seeing a general increase in my core strength and at last assessment I was able to perform some of the tests without shaking like the aforementioned shitting dog.
Its worth having a chat with someone who really knows their stuff in this area as learning good form and finding out whats right for you is very important. The one thing I did learn is while your back is painful/weak, you should avoid any exercise that involves holding both legs in a straightened position (straight leg raises, levers, L-hangs etc) as these place alot of strain on the lower back. Stick to doing them with knees bent.  I'm not saying it'll do anything for your climbing but it may well stop your back hurting which is what I thought you were looking for in the OP.
Also, if it the running thats doing it, consider getting your running style/shoes assessed as using worn out/incorrect shoes and poor style can often contribute to back pain.

[Norton Sharley]

The one thing I did learn is while your back is painful/weak, you should avoid any exercise that involves holding both legs in a straightened position (straight leg raises, levers, L-hangs etc) as these place alot of strain on the lower back.

Agreed.  Unless you do the exercise with a solid core and good posture which then protects your back.  I can't imagine where one would learn such techniques?

Pardon my ignorance but isn't Pilates just a posh modern name for a set of minor variations on some exercises that some asian folk have been doing for thousands of years?

What are these better cross training activities you speak of Lund?  And how shite does shit have to be so we can point out some shit climbers who are shit despite doing yoga rather than as a result of that shit helping? 

Personally I like the lying down and falling asleep bit at the end of a good group yoga session - 

[shark]

Back on topic, I used to suffer from lower back pain alot and after assessment, got put on a set of very basic pilates exercises by my physio.  I thought I had a pretty strong core but after getting utterly schooled by her on some of the simple core strength tests, I realised that I had a few deficiencies.
I have now done these excercises religiously for the last 8 weeks and my back has started to show a marked improvement.

Same for me. I was advised to do yoga by the physio who kept dealing with a recurring L2 vertebrae problem. I have had lower back problems for 30 years. Doing yoga and deadlifts over the winter and spring meant my back never felt so good. It also meant that I cope with more training as my back didnt give way which tended to happen when I did a lot of training/climbing.

I was very sceptical about yoga but discovered the other benefits ie posture, flexibility, core. I'm sure the breathing stuff could be usefully applied too. The fact that there was a 7.30am class on my doorstep meant that it didnt interfere with anything else either. I really should start going again   

[psychomansam]

Back on topic, I used to suffer from lower back pain alot and after assessment, got put on a set of very basic pilates exercises by my physio.  I thought I had a pretty strong core but after getting utterly schooled by her on some of the simple core strength tests, I realised that I had a few deficiencies.
I have now done these excercises religiously for the last 8 weeks and my back has started to show a marked improvement. I am seeing a general increase in my core strength and at last assessment I was able to perform some of the tests without shaking like the aforementioned shitting dog.
Its worth having a chat with someone who really knows their stuff in this area as learning good form and finding out whats right for you is very important. The one thing I did learn is while your back is painful/weak, you should avoid any exercise that involves holding both legs in a straightened position (straight leg raises, levers, L-hangs etc) as these place alot of strain on the lower back. Stick to doing them with knees bent. I'm not saying it'll do anything for your climbing but it may well stop your back hurting which is what I thought you were looking for in the OP.
Also, if it the running thats doing it, consider getting your running style/shoes assessed as using worn out/incorrect shoes and poor style can often contribute to back pain.

We can all generally afford a reasonably healthy and protein rich diet. I think for most people, getting stronger isn't a big issue as we're well serviced with walls and training aids. If we're really lucky we can even get off the walls and climb on rock once in a while.

But how many of us would be climbing fucking grades and grades harder if we weren't constantly getting injured or nursing/recovering from injuries? Definitely makes a difference to most peoples climbing at some point. There's a reason most great sportspeople started while we were still trying to work out which hole to crap out of. I think with climbing especially, starting young and slow prevents injury.

Personally i think they should let athletes chug whatever shit they want, it's having a personal physio that's cheating. Rant over!

  I know i know

[shark]

The climbing walls round here are full of punters trying to put their leg behind their ear.  Some of the chicks are really hot, and it's getting to the point where I can't climb sport without a bird at the base of the route standing on her head.  Fact is though, they DO climb like shit.  All of them.  I don't know a single decent climber who does yoga.

Which climbing walls are these?. Static resistance type stretching* before climbing has been shown to decrease strength performance. I can't ever recall anyone doing yoga stretches at the Foundry before or after except for ones that have obvoiusly part of some corrective physio advice. Is this at the London walls by any chance ? Maybe its some show-off thing going on as in - I can't climb well but I can attract attention doing the splits ? A good climber who did yoga might not feel the same urge.

* However, ballistic stretching was being strongly advocated by Dave Binney at a BMC Youth Climbing event I went to on Saturday.

[JamesD]

Prolonged static stretching before any bout of hardcore exercise is a bit stupid in my opinion, if anything because doing it properly is actually quite tiring!
A good warm-up, some brief dynamic stretching, and then get the hell on with it.
Lund what is it about flexible people you find so offensive, is it just jealousy?
You know what they say about most homophobes don't you? They're just jealous 

On a side not though, i'm not an amazing climber/boulderer/whatever you want to label it, in fact i'm quite a big guy (pushing 17 stone at the moment) which means despite a decent level of strength it's taking longer to improve my power to weight ratio than the average guy, and my yoga experience probably totals no more than 10 sessions over the last year. However thanks to a good few years being involved in martial arts when I was younger, I am still able to do the splits, hold either leg vertically, and a few other  not so remarkable flexibility feats, does that mean that I will remain a really shit climber?
Or does it mean i'll be able to heel hook that nice sloper which other less flexible people cannot reach, saving valuable upper body strength for harder parts of a problem?
Please let me know when you can prove why and how my flexibility will start hampering my climbing