[Lund]

So... have been training about about a year in earnest.  Dabbled a bit before that, but began to properly apply myself about a year ago.  Have been keeping records of the training for about 18 months - and a subjective write up (a diary of more than just sets completed etc. but how it felt and the problems climbed too) for about a year.

Sat down this weekend and did some analysis - stepped back and had a look at what I'd done, and failed to do over the period.

Didn't really know what to expect of it.  In hindsight, non of the results are particularly surprising, but it does leave an unfortunate number of open questions.

- I began with the system board - where I mean an overhanging wooden board with small footholds and sets of handlholds - pinches, crimps, etc. regularly spaced.
- I progressed through that, and started adding in campusing to the set of exercises.
- Did precious little in the way of other exercises - dabbled with bicep curls to work on an undercling weakness, but didn't keep it up - and dabbled with the planche progression (frog stand, tuck stand, etc.).  Also recently started doing theraband work a bit to try to stabilise the rotator cuff (to prevent injury rather than to cure one).  Not consistent with any of this stuff.

Generally speaking, did 4 days a week - 2 consecutive evenings during the week, consisting of a warmup pyramid and then the training exercises - and then if not going away at the weekend, the same on saturday and sunday.  Every now and again, sacked off the training as got bored and spent a session just doing problems.  (This gave me a good indication of mapping training progress to problem standard progress.)

Looking at progress:
- At the beginning of the process, could get V5s with work, and climb the odd 6c+ in Font.
- I started off shit at the training exercises - awful on the system board, campusing pretty punter standard too.
- Training was pretty bursty, managing about 2.5 months max, before having a lay off or a reduction in the 4 day programme to recover from a trip, or because real life intruded, or something.  This always resulted in a slight drop in performance which I needed to get back.
- Periods of training always resulted in a significant gain in the standard of problems achieved, and the stuff doable on the training exercise itself - first moving to regularly doing V5s and the odd V6, then consistently flashing V5, nearly getting V7 - and culminating in crushing 7b in Font.  Not regular on 7b and it needed some work, done in two sessions.  Training wise, went from proper punter to touches on the smallest rungs.  (Can do 146, but only by locking off; will need to change the campusing technique to get 147 but frankly, I want to be good at climbing not campussing so not sure this is worthwhile.)

So pretty clear so far - training hard makes you strong, training a bit keeps you ticking over, resting makes you weak.

There's no visible corelation between the type of training and a gain unfortunately.  That's one big question.  The data shows I've done nothing *obviously* wrong so far - but doesn't point the way ahead conclusively.  It doesn't say if I wasted time on the system board for example and would have been better off with something else and made yet more gains.

In order to take the next step, I think I need to improve the power endurance - have precious little of this - but also just need more power.  This is a subjective view though.

I'm slightly concerned that continuing down the same style of path will not continue to produce gains at the same rate - I don't know where on the curve I am, nor can I see the shape of the curve from the "data".

So... thoughts from the crushers?  Should I just keep going on the same style of shit - or do I need to work on specific weaknesses (e.g. can't do a one arm pull up, am crap at dynos, have little endurance) or is a general get strong plan better?

Put another way... let's say I wanted to do Jerry's roof.  15 moves or so on overhanging non-crimpy rock.  Should I add some endurance work, or just get fecking strong so that it's easy as I'm sooo powerful?

[shark]

V5 to V7 seems a pretty good result in 12 months. When thinking about training its easy to go round and round in circles trying to decide what to do for maximum effect especially with conflicting advice from different directions. Your 'analysis' and 'data' isnt really that in a rigorous sport science sense and even if it was optimal guidance would be tricky even from a coach.  But in general what you have done works so just refine and tweak it and keep experimenting especially as individual responses will vary. If you perceive you have weaknesses that will keep you from your goals then work on them. If there is a specific project you desire train for it specifically. Clearly as you get stronger you will need to physically apply yourself harder or more often or both to keep eliciting physical gains.

[Lund]

V5 to V7 seems a pretty good result in 12 months. When thinking about training its easy to go round and round in circles trying to decide what to do for maximum effect especially with conflicting advice from different directions. Your 'analysis' and 'data' isnt really that in a rigorous sport science sense and even if it was optimal guidance would be tricky even from a coach.  But in general what you have done works so just refine and tweak it and keep experimenting especially as individual responses will vary. If you perceive you have weaknesses that will keep you from your goals then work on them. If there is a specific project you desire train for it specifically. Clearly as you get stronger you will need to physically apply yourself harder or more often or both to keep eliciting physical gains.

What's the limit in terms of improvement?  (Didn't Malcolm go from 7c+ to 8c+ in a season by climbing on a board?)

[slackline]

(Didn't Malcolm go from 7c+ to 8c+ in a season by climbing on a board?)

Best check with PaulB of Jasper on that front. 

[Paul B]

  - he's moving house he might miss this in the midst of all the stress...

Regardless; from a physical point of view THAT board and THOSE problems gave me the best physical gains I've ever had in the shortest amount of time.

[Lund]

When thinking about training its easy to go round and round in circles trying to decide what to do for maximum effect especially with conflicting advice from different directions.

Right.  Exactly the problem.

Your 'analysis' and 'data' isnt really that in a rigorous sport science sense and even if it was optimal guidance would be tricky even from a coach. 

I'm trying to coach myself.  I have fuckloads of data, but no controls, nothing to compare it to - so I can't compare the effectiveness at all, which is why I'm stuck with fricking macro-bullshit trend spotting.  So you're bang on.

But in general what you have done works so just refine and tweak it and keep experimenting especially as individual responses will vary. If you perceive you have weaknesses that will keep you from your goals then work on them. If there is a specific project you desire train for it specifically. Clearly as you get stronger you will need to physically apply yourself harder or more often or both to keep eliciting physical gains.

I don't agree that the best way of training is to try different things ad infinitum and hope that I get better.  It's basically what I do - but it's a bit crap.  It's not what a 400m runner would do I don't think.  It also contrasts with the specific problem part of your advice: train specifically.  How exactly, when I'm just trying stuff and seeing what works?  How do I do that specifically?

The problem I have is that I have no idea if I'm doing the right stuff - I combine a load of books and theory with some shit off the interweb and create a training routine.  Garbage in, garbage out.  It appears to work a bit - but hell, as you pointed out I have no control and so frankly, I can't prove that alternating my wanking hand each day wouldn't have produced similar gains in contact strength...

I have no idea what the point of this post is.  Basically, there's isn't one.  Like the science behind training for climbing.  We don't really know.  We have some rough ideas - involving working harder, and some periodisation thrown together with a bunch of training aids.

[slackline]

I don't agree that the best way of training is to try different things ad infinitum and hope that I get better.  It's basically what I do - but it's a bit crap.  It's not what a 400m runner would do I don't think.  It also contrasts with the specific problem part of your advice: train specifically.  How exactly, when I'm just trying stuff and seeing what works?  How do I do that specifically?

This sounds like a bit of a crux.  A 400m runner is training for something very specific, and you are asking how to identify something specific.  The answer to that question will have to come from you and will be the result of focusing on what goals you want to achieve.

What are your weakness'?  Find some projects (for inspiration, although I'd imagine you can do this without projects to be working towards) that require you to improve a weakness and train specifically to improve that weakness.

I can't prove that alternating my wanking hand each day wouldn't have produced similar gains in contact strength...

Don't change hands, stick with one and see if your contact strength improves on that side compared to the other.  You act as your own control (with the caveat that one side will already be stronger than the other due to handedness).

[Serpico]

I don't agree that the best way of training is to try different things ad infinitum and hope that I get better.  It's basically what I do - but it's a bit crap.  It's not what a 400m runner would do I don't think.  It also contrasts with the specific problem part of your advice: train specifically.  How exactly, when I'm just trying stuff and seeing what works?  How do I do that specifically?

The problem I have is that I have no idea if I'm doing the right stuff - I combine a load of books and theory with some shit off the interweb and create a training routine.  Garbage in, garbage out.  It appears to work a bit - but hell, as you pointed out I have no control and so frankly, I can't prove that alternating my wanking hand each day wouldn't have produced similar gains in contact strength

To a degree it is what 400m runners (or other athletes) do - they all have training programs based on a belief that what they're doing is right but there's often little hard proof that all the individual components make a difference, just look at some of the differences between different country's programs.
For evaluating your own program you need to look at it on two levels:
(1) can you evaluate progress in the individual exercise? ie: can you do more reps/weight?
(2) is the exercise transferable to your sport? For climbing as training this is obviously yes, for system training you should see a noticeable difference on climbing moves that are similar to those you train on the system board, for campusing you're a step further removed and you may only notice the difference on certain moves, by the time you get to weight training and conditioning, which are pretty non-specific, you may be going on feel alone. Often the best time to introduce non-specific training is when you've been plateaued for some time - any effects are much more noticeable then.
As has already mentioned, the training you're doing has clearly worked for you, but even if it's the perfect regime for you you won't continue to make gains at the same rate as time goes on. I think the worst thing you could do when that happens is to presume that it's no longer working and abandon it in favour of something else.
Personal experimentation is unavoidable - you can't follow someone else's program and expect the same results, you need to find your own dose response - what's the minimum training you can do for the maximum gains, and then re-evaluate it as your training experience increases and gains become harder to achieve. Any more training than the minimum needed is by definition over-training. 

[shark]

But in general what you have done works so just refine and tweak it and keep experimenting especially as individual responses will vary.

I don't agree that the best way of training is to try different things ad infinitum and hope that I get better. 

Just how did you manage to translate the former to the latter?  I wish I hadn't wasted my time now giving a considered response.

[slackline]

welcome to the internet where people tend to disagree with each other.

 

[shark]

As has already mentioned, the training you're doing has clearly worked for you, but even if it's the perfect regime for you you won't continue to make gains at the same rate as time goes on. I think the worst thing you could do when that happens is to presume that it's no longer working and abandon it in favour of something else.

This a really good point (amongst other good points) worth highlighting. Some of the quick strength gains that are made are neural learning to do the move/exercise type ones that come and go quickly. When these plateau out it is tempting to move on to something else more gratifying. The 'real' strength gains if you keep at it will be slower in coming and also the longer you work them the less easily you lose them. Given that you are frustrated at a good rate of progress how will you deal with plateauing ?- which is inevitable - that's when the real grind starts.

Shit I got suckered in again. In general if you keep doing what you do and focus on upping the load one way or another through intensity, density or frequency and keep an open, enquiring mind and learn and adjust as you go along then that is as good a formula to continual sustained improvement as I can suggest in a few words. Climbers are forever looking for a single magic bullet and there isnt usually just one. Unless you are Omar.

[Serpico]

That's what's personal coaching's about - trying out slightly different versions of the same post to see which works better.


Edit
Except now you've used you Bug Boss powers to remove one of your previous posts, rendering my above comments nonsensical.

[shark]

Other near duplicate post removed. A slight improvement on the content but went backwards on the formatting. 

Edit

Which is why I also edited this post referring to that previous near duplicate post.

[Lund]

But in general what you have done works so just refine and tweak it and keep experimenting especially as individual responses will vary.

I don't agree that the best way of training is to try different things ad infinitum and hope that I get better. 

Just how did you manage to translate the former to the latter?  I wish I hadn't wasted my time now giving a considered response.

substitute "what you have done" in "in general what you have done works" with what I did - bounce around every few weeks between random exercise on the campus board and the system board, trying different stuff - and you end up with "in general bouncing around every few weeks between random exercises on the campus board and the system board so just refine in and tweak it ..." - and presto... we're much closer. 

[Lund]

As has already mentioned, the training you're doing has clearly worked for you, but even if it's the perfect regime for you you won't continue to make gains at the same rate as time goes on. I think the worst thing you could do when that happens is to presume that it's no longer working and abandon it in favour of something else.

This a really good point (amongst other good points) worth highlighting. Some of the quick strength gains that are made are neural learning to do the move/exercise type ones that come and go quickly. When these plateau out it is tempting to move on to something else more gratifying. The 'real' strength gains if you keep at it will be slower in coming and also the longer you work them the less easily you lose them. Given that you are frustrated at a good rate of progress how will you deal with plateauing ?- which is inevitable - that's when the real grind starts.

Shit I got suckered in again. In general if you keep doing what you do and focus on upping the load one way or another through intensity, density or frequency and keep an open, enquiring mind and learn and adjust as you go along then that is as good a formula to continual sustained improvement as I can suggest in a few words. Climbers are forever looking for a single magic bullet and there isnt usually just one. Unless you are Omar.

OK, I get it.  Rather than worrying that I'll plateau because the training programme is shit and has worked purely by accident not design so far - rather than searching for scientific answers to check out what's good and bad about it, I should just get on with it, as it's obviously working.

Cheers gents.

P.S. Shark I wasn't trying to be a tosser by the way.  Difference in perspective is all.

[Serpico]

rather than searching for scientific answers to check out what's good and bad about it, I should just get on with it, as it's obviously working

The problem is that there isn't really much science to draw on - there aren't studies that show that doing x amount of campusing will lead to x amount of improvement in over all climbing ability. What you have got is a program that's delivered results because of the sum of it's components, the relative contribution of these components is something that you'll get a feel for over time.

I'm slightly concerned that continuing down the same style of path will not continue to produce gains at the same rate - I don't know where on the curve I am, nor can I see the shape of the curve from the "data".

That's inevitable, if it wasn't you'd be able to plot a linear curve between where you are now and Sharma. The trick is to be able to differentiate between a plateau and a barely perceptible incline. The only certainty is that you'll find it harder and harder to make gains and the only way to get through that is by increasing the intensity you bring to each training and climbing session.

Put another way... let's say I wanted to do Jerry's roof.  15 moves or so on overhanging non-crimpy rock.  Should I add some endurance work, or just get fecking strong so that it's easy as I'm sooo powerful?

The principle of specificity states that to get better at something you must do that thing, so some endurance training is unavoidable. But you also need to work strength and power to maintain them so the question is how much time to devote to each. This depends on what you (genetically) bring to the table; if you get endurance really quickly then obviously working endurance will increase the number of moves you can do at the required intensity (assuming you can do the moves in the first place),  if you struggle to get endurance but build strength relatively easily then you'll benefit more by assigning more time to building strength, and therefore increasing your strength headroom on the problem.
Play to your strengths.

[Omar15]

As has already mentioned, the training you're doing has clearly worked for you, but even if it's the perfect regime for you you won't continue to make gains at the same rate as time goes on. I think the worst thing you could do when that happens is to presume that it's no longer working and abandon it in favour of something else.

This a really good point (amongst other good points) worth highlighting. Some of the quick strength gains that are made are neural learning to do the move/exercise type ones that come and go quickly. When these plateau out it is tempting to move on to something else more gratifying. The 'real' strength gains if you keep at it will be slower in coming and also the longer you work them the less easily you lose them. Given that you are frustrated at a good rate of progress how will you deal with plateauing ?- which is inevitable - that's when the real grind starts.

Shit I got suckered in again. In general if you keep doing what you do and focus on upping the load one way or another through intensity, density or frequency and keep an open, enquiring mind and learn and adjust as you go along then that is as good a formula to continual sustained improvement as I can suggest in a few words. Climbers are forever looking for a single magic bullet and there isnt usually just one. Unless you are Omar.

hahaha. this is quite an interesting post, but i do think the solution is probably training to do more one armers.