[Fultonius]

Other than pulley and tendon injuries, which are usually down to doing too much, too soon; or feet slipping; or beasting out the fingerboard too much.    Niggly shoulders and elbows seem to be the most common complaints on here. 

So, with this in mind, do you think that doing some powerful weight training to work out the rotator cuffs and scapula stabilisers is probably the key to long term injury free climbing?

Malc Smith spent a while beasting out the big weights and he has shoulders of steel.

My shoulders were so bad for a time that my right shoulder would partially dislocate multiple times on a route! Now they're much better.

Your thoughts?

[slackline]

Deja vu 

[shark]

So, with this in mind, do you think that doing some powerful weight training to work out the rotator cuffs and scapula stabilisers is probably the key to long term injury free climbing?

Yes but throw in some postural correction stuff stretches or yoga as well.

[Fultonius]

Deja vu 

Well, that thread was what got me started! Could we maybe have a sticky thread/FAQ type thing with links to good shoulder info? These questions come up again and again.

Shark, I've never done any Yoga, but I imagine it must help. Do you think it works the muscles with the required amount of force to properly counteract badly out-of-balance climber's shoulders?

[slackline]

Deja vu 

Well, that thread was what got me started! Could we maybe have a sticky thread/FAQ type thing with links to good shoulder info? These questions come up again and again.

Thats what the Wiki is for.  GCW wrote up Pulley Injuries : The Science but people still ask in the forums (most likely 'cause they don't know the wiki exists!).

[Fultonius]

  The Wiki? 

I guess: 

Woops. 

[JamesD]

Other than pulley and tendon injuries, which are usually down to doing too much, too soon; or feet slipping; or beasting out the fingerboard too much.    Niggly shoulders and elbows seem to be the most common complaints on here. 

So, with this in mind, do you think that doing some powerful weight training to work out the rotator cuffs and scapula stabilisers is probably the key to long term injury free climbing?

Malc Smith spent a while beasting out the big weights and he has shoulders of steel.

My shoulders were so bad for a time that my right shoulder would partially dislocate multiple times on a route! Now they're much better.

Your thoughts?

Front kettle bell swings

Snatch, one armed dumbell snatch

Will hit the scapula and the front delts

Deadlifts will work scapula/traps (amongst many other things)

Scapula push-ups.

This article offers some good advice:

http://www.sportsrehabexpert.com/public/96.cfm?sd=2

You also want to do all the different rotator cuff rotation exercises with resistance bands, I try and give my shoulders some TLC at least 1-2 times a week before I go for a swim.

[jimbo]

I think the accepted knowledge on shoulder stability has come a long way in the last 5-10 years or so. To put this into context after I had my first shoulder stabilisation op I had to wait for 8 weeks or so and then start work with the physio. At the time the school of thought was all about strengthening the muscle envelope around the shoulder to bring the stability. Fast forward 5 years and after my second shoulder op, I was straight in with the physio and the emphasis was on core stability, posture and making the internal shoulder muscles (I forget their name - roator cuff muscles?) strong using a range of theraband exercises and those big ball things. The physio suggested that concentrating a lot on just the weights and beefing up around the shoulders could in fact be detrimental to shoulder stability as at the point when the shoulder begins to come out it is the muscles inside it which fire it back into place. Apparently you can get an inbalance where you use the big muscles outside the shoulder (typical of many climbers) for things which should be done by smaller muscles inside. I hope that makes sense. It was quite a shift in practice I remember thinking at the time. Ultimately I think the sensible option would be to do the weights and build up the muscle but in conjuction with rotator cuff exercises.

[Iesu]

So, with this in mind, do you think that doing some powerful weight training to work out the rotator cuffs and scapula stabilisers is probably the key to long term injury free climbing?

Yes but throw in some postural correction stuff stretches or yoga as well.

be very wary of yoga that involves holding postures for a long time, especially as part of a long and intense session - downward dog held for what seemed like an eternity towards the end of a 90 minute class used to make my left shoulder pop out/sublux or whatever.

In general though I'd say yoga is a good thing and not just for shoulders - just be wary of certain postures and listen to what your joints are telling you

edit: and more bulk generally means less flexibility

[JamesD]

So, with this in mind, do you think that doing some powerful weight training to work out the rotator cuffs and scapula stabilisers is probably the key to long term injury free climbing?

Yes but throw in some postural correction stuff stretches or yoga as well.

edit: and more bulk generally means less flexibility

I'd just like to add, that bulk/size/mass whatever leading to inflexibility, is the biggest load of rubbish ever.
I take great pleasure in shattering this myth in front of people when I show them how a 6 ft 2 100kg guy can be more flexible than someone half my size/weight.
A lack of stretching, and an ineffective flexibility training protocol cause a reduction in flexibility, sadly this is all too common amongst athletes, with many rating the importance of flexibility as zero to none in the grand scheme of things.
I am around 100kg and I can do the splits, have a very flexible spine, can do various arched positions, crab etc, and can lift each individual leg up to almost vertical whilst standing upright.
Oh....and my legs are massive too....so there goes your completely unfounded and baseless theory.

[Falling Down]

do you think that doing some powerful weight training to work out the rotator cuffs and scapula stabilisers is probably the key to long term injury free climbing?

Yes. And not necessarily powerful nor are weights necessary either although they do help.

[Iesu]

So, with this in mind, do you think that doing some powerful weight training to work out the rotator cuffs and scapula stabilisers is probably the key to long term injury free climbing?

Yes but throw in some postural correction stuff stretches or yoga as well.

edit: and more bulk generally means less flexibility

I'd just like to add, that bulk/size/mass whatever leading to inflexibility, is the biggest load of rubbish ever.
I take great pleasure in shattering this myth in front of people when I show them how a 6 ft 2 100kg guy can be more flexible than someone half my size/weight.
A lack of stretching, and an ineffective flexibility training protocol cause a reduction in flexibility, sadly this is all too common amongst athletes, with many rating the importance of flexibility as zero to none in the grand scheme of things.
I am around 100kg and I can do the splits, have a very flexible spine, can do various arched positions, crab etc, and can lift each individual leg up to almost vertical whilst standing upright.
Oh....and my legs are massive too....so there goes your completely unfounded and baseless theory.

i thought it was fairly obvious that my comment was based on personal experience and the fact that most people who train for pure power massively neglect flexibility

by the way, how many legs have you got exactly?

I'll bet mine are bigger than yours too.....

[Stubbs]

I'll bet mine are bigger than yours too.....

Time to get the tape measures out boyos: Iesu's thighs of steel forged on the hillsides of the Brecon Beacons vs JamesD's deadlifting powerhouses!

[Iesu]

I'll bet mine are bigger than yours too.....

Time to get the tape measures out boyos: Iesu's thighs of steel forged on the hillsides of the Brecon Beacons vs JamesD's deadlifting powerhouses!

I'll bet my calves are bigger than his thighs!

[Fultonius]

do you think that doing some powerful weight training to work out the rotator cuffs and scapula stabilisers is probably the key to long term injury free climbing?

Yes. And not necessarily powerful nor are weights necessary either although they do help.

Do you think you can get the necessary resistance without weights?  My main shoulder workouts consist of various dumbell exercises (shoulder press, lateral raise, internal and external rotation, bent-over row, flys), barbell snatch, pressups on wobble board and stretching. If I'm offshore I'll throw in some standing low deltoid raises and high to low cable crossovers (these two were recommended by my physio) I also like wood choppers for general shoulder/core strength and do palm-down bicep curls to prevent font elbow.

I used (and definitely recommend) static isometric exercises moving on to therabands if you're injured, I just don't think they do enough when you're fit and well and trying to prevent future problems.

[JamesD]

So, with this in mind, do you think that doing some powerful weight training to work out the rotator cuffs and scapula stabilisers is probably the key to long term injury free climbing?

Yes but throw in some postural correction stuff stretches or yoga as well.

edit: and more bulk generally means less flexibility

I'd just like to add, that bulk/size/mass whatever leading to inflexibility, is the biggest load of rubbish ever.
I take great pleasure in shattering this myth in front of people when I show them how a 6 ft 2 100kg guy can be more flexible than someone half my size/weight.
A lack of stretching, and an ineffective flexibility training protocol cause a reduction in flexibility, sadly this is all too common amongst athletes, with many rating the importance of flexibility as zero to none in the grand scheme of things.
I am around 100kg and I can do the splits, have a very flexible spine, can do various arched positions, crab etc, and can lift each individual leg up to almost vertical whilst standing upright.
Oh....and my legs are massive too....so there goes your completely unfounded and baseless theory.

i thought it was fairly obvious that my comment was based on personal experience and the fact that most people who train for pure power massively neglect flexibility

by the way, how many legs have you got exactly?

I'll bet mine are bigger than yours too.....

Only 2....unless you count the 3rd 

70cm relaxed, 75cm flexed

P.S. I agree with the statement you are making now, but that is quite different from what you said before   

[Fultonius]

Come on guys, enough of the HiJAcking.   

[mrjonathanr]

I'll throw in my ha'penny worth if I may. Although the only knowledge I have is based not on training, but an extensive and varied history of misfortune with this joint, so I might not be the best informed..
Pumping iron has little to do with stable shoulders. Not nothing mind, but it's not the main event: that's under the surface where an essentially non-existent joint is held together by small postural muscles and a bit of connective tissue.
Postural imbalances can result in some stabilizing muscles being effectively 'switched off' because they are not used, muscles which should be taut becoming stretched and the reverse on the opposing side of the joint. Additionally muscles which are key to maintaining appropriate arcs of motion which don't damage the joint can be weak or ineffective - and you can be as puffed up as an olympic power-lifter and still have these problems. Training the small muscles requires not having the bigger muscles 'carry' the motion - they're not what you're trying to train.
That short span article contains some good rotator cuff exercises, but there are others that are advantageous for some people too. In general postural exercises need to be done very precisely and are kind of finicky/frustrating in my experience.

Hopefully someone with real physio knowledge will be along in a bit. Oh and re. yoga, Ashtanga is brilliant.

[Paul B]

That sounds spot on.

Is an article on these kind of exercises really any use given a lot of them require you to maintain correct posture to target the correct muscles, at this point you'll be fighting the bad posture that you no doubt have engrained from years of being stooped over a PC.

[Falling Down]

Have you tried one arm shoulder pressups?  My Physio prescribed them as therapy to counteract a shoulder imbalance.  They are a bit hard to describe but you basically get into kneeling pressup position, lock both arms straight, lift one off the floor and then do a really small movement of the shoulder up and down keeping the back and shoulders straight and parallel.. 10 reps each side.  I can't find a video online as I'm not sure if I have the correct name.

[Fultonius]

Anything like this?

[Falling Down]

Yep that's it except my physio had me doing them one armed but kneeling rather than in the plank position.  They were quite tricky and really exposed the fact that I'd been overcompensating with the main shoulder and arm muscles.

[Fultonius]

Good knowledge.

[Fultonius]

Yep that's it except my physio had me doing them one armed but kneeling rather than in the plank position.  They were quite tricky and really exposed the fact that I'd been overcompensating with the main shoulder and arm muscles.

Just been trying those shoulder-pushups and like you, I seem to have an obvious deficiency! My shoulder blades seem to "wing" a lot, which kinda points towards a serratus anterior weakness which I'm going to start trying to work on and get sorted before I get back climbing.

[highrepute]

http://hallamshirephysiotherapy.com/climbing_injuries.pdf

just stumbled across this. Not specific to shoulders but it does mention them and how everything is linked together. It doesn't contain any specific exercises which i think the OP was looking for.