[Charles]

There seem to be a number of different ways to train power endurance:

1) Interval Training
Circuits at 80% intensity (i.e. 2 grades below max onsight) with x mins rest in between. Repeat to fail.

2) High Intensity Circuit Training
Circuit at max redpoint grade split into 3 or 4 sections. Climb a section, rest 15 seconds, climb a section, rest 15 seconds etc. Rest 15 mins and repeat 3 or 4 times.

3)Foot on Campus Board Training
With feet on, 20 - 30 hand movements (e.g. both rung 1, RH rung 3, LH rung 3, RH rung 2, LH rung 1, RH rung 1 etc.) Rest 15 mins. Repeat 3 or 4 times.

4) 4x4s and 6x8s
4 problems done back to back, rest for as long as it took to climb them, and repeat 4 times. (Quote from Serpico as I've never done them.)

So what do people reckon are the most effective methods. Or which method is best for what?

Of course this could very well just be one of those "the best is whichever suits you" answers, but at least we can get all the various PE training techniques and opinions in one thread.

[rodma]

There seem to be a number of different ways to train power endurance:

1) Interval Training
Circuits at 80% intensity (i.e. 2 grades below max onsight) with x mins rest in between. Repeat to fail.

A general comment on this is that it is very difficult to tell when you are at 80% intensity. Just setting an artificial jump backwards in grade is unlikely to do it. That comment actually applies to all of the methods that you have mentioned, as it is also very hard to just put your feet on whilst doing campus moves and automatically be at the correct level of intensity.

Sorry for that, not really any help, but Im acting like a choad today, I'm sure someone will post something constructive soonly.

[Fultonius]

I hear ya Rodders: It take's a bit of trial and error to find the right intensity that gives you the dreaded pain-pump but allows yuo to maintain that level for a decent time.

[Stu Littlefair]

3)Foot on Campus Board Training
With feet on, 20 - 30 hand movements (e.g. both rung 1, RH rung 3, LH rung 3, RH rung 2, LH rung 1, RH rung 1 etc.) Rest 15 mins. Repeat 3 or 4 times.

That doesn't look like it'll train anything. 15 minutes rest between 30 moves?!

Drop the rest to 1-2 minutes, repeat 4-5 times and it's more like it.

In general it's not right to think of a single 'zone' for power endurance training. You want to do a mix of less intense stuff (20-30 moves at a lower level; 1-3 minutes rest) and more intense stuff (10-20 moves at a very hard level; 4-5 minutes rest). One will see more strength gains and less recovery gains, the other will provide the opposite. You'll want a balance which will depend on your strengths, weaknesses and improvement...

[Probes]

I always try and relate it to length of time to failure... eg  1 min (400m runner), 2 min (800m runner). Anything over 10 secs is really power endurance up to about 2 minutes?, just finding a balance of the intensity to last for the length of time you want.
I do a simple foot on campus ladder exercise for about 1 1/2 min with 10 rest between x 5?(depending on boredum)
Its hand over hand alternating hands 1,5,4,3,2,1 for min and half which is usually when i fail.
Works a treat in general.

[Charles]

That doesn't look like it'll train anything. 15 minutes rest between 30 moves?!

Oops don't think I meant 15 minutes!

So if you were training for one of the routes on the catwalk at Malham you'd go higher intensity - less moves, longer rest. But training for routes that were hard sequences seperated by good rests you might use the longer circuits with shorter rest?

[mian0503]

As Stu i believe to do the mix of them all. U might get more out of every single session if u do it, at least that´s my experience.

 - normally i do in an PE session: 5 sets of 20-30 routes att about 80-90% of redpoint. Subjectice but approx 7c route since 8b/b+ is my up to date max/ then 5 sets of 20-25 campus moves/ then 3-5 sets of 6by6:s or 6by8:s depending on type of boulderproblem and shape/ often i end my session with an endurance circuit which equals 30 moves around 7a - 1minute climb-1minute rest for about ten-twenty minutes

rest periods vary between 2-4 minutes between sets on the PE part.

Mikael, Sweden

[mian0503]

I meant: 5 sets of 20-30 moves. equals 5 routes/sets at about 7c...

[Stu Littlefair]

So if you were training for one of the routes on the catwalk at Malham you'd go higher intensity - less moves, longer rest. But training for routes that were hard sequences seperated by good rests you might use the longer circuits with shorter rest?

No; I'd always do both, but the balance between them would be dictated by whether my recovery or my strength felt like my weak spot.

[Charles]

Cheers, Stu. I'll have to start mixing it up a bit then.

[abarro81]

What Stu said...

I'd add: doing foot-on campusing is nicely basic and un-cruxy which I find lends itself well to digging deep whilst knackered, and thus seems like a good way to beast yourself at the end of a sesssion if that's what you're going for. Pre-easter I had some good sessions doing 30-40 move circuits on the wave, then rest for a bit, then foot-on campusing, then really finish yourself off doing loads of foot-on-undercut-pull-in-style things on the foundry campus board undercut bit (I didn't explain that very well, can you see why I don't do English?). I've only ever really used it in a session where I've already done some circuits or 4x4s, then done foot-on campus after.
RE your fb message.. I can't remember exactly what I was doing on the matrix campus board. On the foundry one I liked putting feet on middle foot rung, then do 1-4-6-match-4-1-match then repeat leading with opposite arm (so match 1 then go straight back up with the same hand). Three times leading with each arm = 36 moves, 2 min rests between sets of that, and you can hang on a jug on the wall nearby for the rest time to make it more like shaking out on a route. If it's too easy then drop the rest time, do more moves or do it on front 3 or something. If it's too hard then man up. Or experiment with other sequences to find one that works. The standard thing seems to be aiming to fail around the 8th set, though if you were only doing this and not tagging it on after circuits I'd be tempted to break it up into, say, blocks of 4 sets with 10 min off between blocks, and try to do maybe 4 of those blocks.  (note, numbers invented with no science behind them) The other thing I played with was everytime you grab a new rung force yourself to hold it for 5 seconds (still with other hand on) before making the next move. I figured this might simulate real climbing a bit better, since it's easy to go really quickly doing foot-on campus stuff, though I have no idea how important the length of time holding each hold is to how useful the training is. It makes your forearms scream anyway, which can only be a good thing. For that you'll need to do less moves, or use a timer and do minute-on-minute-off or similar.

If you want fitness for longer stuff then I'm a total convert to aerobic capacity stuff - like capillarising but harder, so you're on the wall for 20-30min, a bit pumped but not out of control.

Final thought: The thing I worry about with some circuits is that going up definitely uses some muscles that going sideways ignores a bit. If you do up-down-ups on problems or 4x4s then your biceps and shoulders get boxed, whereas if you go sideways they generally don't... I figure more vertical movement = good, so set circuits that climb up and down lots.

Final, final thought: Apparently Simpson used to be sceptical about 4x4s etc because of the small rest time built in dropping off and moving between problems. I guess it depends on what you're training for, but with this in mind I have a vague idea that maybe things where you don't step off (circuits or up-down-ups) are best for intense, hard move, longer rest style work, and the 4x4/6x8 style is more useful in the 6x8 format or similar where it's a less intense, more stamina-like pump you're aiming for.

[Charles]

Nice one, Alex.

I was playing on the campus board at the Matrix yesterday. Doing same as you (but 1-3-5-match-3-1) so 36 moves, but only resting one minute. I was failing on the 5th rep but I guess if I rested 2 mins I'd probably be failing on the 8th. I rested 15 mins between sets and did 3 sets.

2 minutes rest sounds better - I don't think what I was doing was sustaining the pump for long enough to be of any benefit.

I'll have another play after the weekend. Pretty good for a quick session between revision!

[Doylo]

I like to do a combination of PE circuits to cover all bases. True dropping off between goes isn't realistic but then neither is down climbing /sidewise shuffling. To be honest i tend to judge such things on how they make my forearams feel. If my arms are totally boxed and  feel powered out to the max then i tend to think its doing some good. But then i'm probably not scientific enough!

[butterworthtom]

What about doing some repeaters on the beastmaker. You only have to walk downstairs to do that. Gives me a power endurance workout.

[Charles]

I don't think repeaters are the best way of training power endurance, or even the fifth best way. They just don't target the forearms in an effective manner. And while we're on it, I don't reckon they're as good for training finger strength. I'd rather do seperate sessions - one of max. hangs (6-8 secs) on a fingerboard and one of power endurance on a circuit board or similar.

[mrjonathanr]

Final thought: The thing I worry about with some circuits is that going up definitely uses some muscles that going sideways ignores a bit. If you do up-down-ups on problems or 4x4s then your biceps and shoulders get boxed, whereas if you go sideways they generally don't... I figure more vertical movement = good, so set circuits that climb up and down lots.

If I'm trying to build stamina after a lay-off or injury (ie quite often) indoors I like to do boulder circuits. Each problem uses starting holds properly, get to the next however you like, shake-outs only on overhanging sections, never grooves/slabs etc.
That makes for a lot of up-and-down as well as side-to-side, and doing an entire circuit without stepping off equals lots of moves.
Needs to be done at quiet times though.

[Falling Down]

4) 4x4s and 6x8s
4 problems done back to back, rest for as long as it took to climb them, and repeat 4 times. (Quote from Serpico as I've never done them.)

FWIW from the punter end of the spectrum, I trained exclusively doing 4x4s as you describe for about a month (about 3-4 times per week) before going to Turkey - essentially as I don't have a lead indoor wall nearby and wasn't allowed out to climb on the crags either - and was really pleased with the results: my best ever flash of a sport route. For several months prior to that I done very little except bouldering.

Ditto from the punter end. I spent the Jan/Feb 08 period doing this and was really pleased with the results in March.

[TobyD]

Final, final thought: Apparently Simpson used to be sceptical about 4x4s etc because of the small rest time built in dropping off and moving between problems. I guess it depends on what you're training for, but with this in mind I have a vague idea that maybe things where you don't step off (circuits or up-down-ups) are best for intense, hard move, longer rest style work, and the 4x4/6x8 style is more useful in the 6x8 format or similar where it's a less intense, more stamina-like pump you're aiming for.

interesting, and that would tally with my personal experience, i have found that 4x4s have resulted in improved stamina on longer routes, and particualarly improved 'shaking out' recovery time rather than PE threshold improvement as intended. Slightly frustrating but not wasted i suppose! Found this even when focussing 4x4s on minimal numbers of harder moves, and minimising 'drop off' time as much as practically possible.

[Falling Down]

Thought I'd extend this thread rather than start a new one.

When doing 4x4's, how many sets of the 4x4 do other people do?   Last night I did 4 repeats e.g. 4 sets of 4x4's with 10 mins rest between each set of 16 problems.   e.g. 74 problems in total.  It felt like I'd been for run, but on my arms.... great workout.

Just curious to see what other folk do?

[Fultonius]

On routes I usually just do 1 "set" i.e. 4 laps, rest while mate does 4 laps, repeat 4 times. Total of 16 routes. 74 routes would fire me staright into the injury pit for sure!

Never really done 4x4s while bouldering though.

[Dexter]

as regards foot on campus work another thing that can be good to do is to periodically cut loose and try and make a few moves since this works both hard intense work when pumped and helps you in those situations when you're really pumped and your feet pop off

[Rocksteady]

When doing 4x4's, how many sets of the 4x4 do other people do?   Last night I did 4 repeats e.g. 4 sets of 4x4's with 10 mins rest between each set of 16 problems.   e.g. 74 problems in total.  It felt like I'd been for run, but on my arms.... great workout.
Just curious to see what other folk do?

I thought the point of a 4x4 was that it was 4 sets of 4 problems (which can be different, the point is you're doing them in a row)? So if you are doing 16 sets it's really a 16x4?   

Respect though, that is a beast workout!

[Falling Down]

Sorry, I didn't explain myself properly. I did do the 4x4's as per the description. e.g. 4 problems done back-to-back then 2-3 mins rest then repeat again three more times. This equates to 16 problems done over a 20 minute (or thereabouts) period.  I then did that 4x4 again three more times (dropping the difficulty of problems) with ten minutes rest between each 4x4.  Does that make sense?

[Adam Lincoln]

Does that make sense?

 

[Falling Down]

Thankyou Adam 

I was just curious to see how many other repeats of the 4x4 people are doing?  When I did them before I just used to do the one 4x4 at the end of a session but it wasn't very satisfactory. I got the 4 repeats suggestion from Erm Sam (who I think got it from Dylan...)