[roddersm]

Hi All,

I'm sure this question has been asked and answered before but I'm going to ask it again because there seems to be a fair bit of conflicting advice about this from elite climbers.

I recall reading various malcolm smith articles were he said that he often climbed best on his 3rd day on and trains quite a lot of days on. Patxi states in progression that he hadn't had a rest day in 30 days. This suggests that in order to get really strong is train a lot and if you're fit you should be able to train for multiple days on without resting. Malcs and Patxis records speak for themselves so theres no reason to doubt this.

However in a recent article Stevie Haston whos climbing record is almost superhuman says he often only trains or climbs 2 days in 8 and spends a lot off time resting and suggests a pattern off day on/ day off/ day on/2 days off is ideal for improving.     

My own pattern around a 37-40 hour working week is to Train (indoor bouldering or fingerboard session),run(40-65 min) or climb/boulder 4-6 days per week with usually only 1 or 2 day total rest days a week. In fact I very rarely have 2 days in a row without climb, running or pullups. so an example week for me would be:

M  - 1.5 hrs climbing wall or rest or run 40 min
T   - 1.5 hrs climbing wall
W  - Run 40 - 50 min or rest
T   - 1.5 hrs climbing wall
F   - Rest
S   - Climb/ boulder/ train or rest
S   - Climb/ boulder/ train or rest

I've always felt that this is a farely low volume of training and that if I wanted to get really good I'd need to increase this significantly however I still feel with this pattern I've gradually improved and continue to do so. At the minute my pbs would be bouldering 7a, trad E3 OS and sport 6c+ OS. 

However over the past year or so I've started to get more niggly injuries than in the past (I'm 29) and also sometimes feel too fatigued at the weekend to perform my best at the crag. Therefore I'm starting to wonder whether the way to go is to rest more often a la stevie (and not feel guilty for doing so) or keep increasing the volume of training to try and increase my fitness to tolerate a higher volume.

Like most people I suppose I want to ensure that my training allows me to feel fresh enough to perform at my best at the weekends at the crag but also to help my body build the fitness to perform 2-3 days on when on 1 or 2 week climbing trips.

What do other people think about training to rest ratio?

Thanks,

Rodney.

[Serpico]

The amount of volume you can handle is a trainable variable, and generally it improves with years spent training/climbing.
As for volume rest ratios, they're totally individual - what's necessary will be different for someone else. Also you'll find that people have different tolerances to different facets of training (strength, power, endurance, etc).
All you can do is experiment and see what works for you, other people's experiences are largely irrelevant.

[Canary M Burns]

I slowly went from 3 x 3-4Hrs a week down to 1 x 2hrs week/fortnight.

This was due to my swelling family situation and starting a new business. But, guess what, I've actually got stronger and i don't do any other supplementary stuff (apart from pushing buggies up and down the hills round here and carrying kids round zoo & parks)

Guess some people need extra extra recover time when they get older?

[roddersm]

Hi Serpico,

Thanks. I realise that theres no exact answer to this and that its dependant on individual fitness and what they are trying to achieve. I suppose what I want to discuss really is that there are opposing schools of thought from individuals who have a high level off fitness and experience. One is that if you are fit and want to get good you need to train a lot even if you are completely fucked (patxi - top comp climber 8c+ o/s, 9a+ rp) and the other is yes you should totally beast yourself but if you don't have a fair few rest days your muscles won't regenerate and you won't improve (Stevie H, 9a at 52 and one of the best all round climbers ever). Even taking into account individual variation these are pretty opposing points of view.

I suppose what I want to find out is that if I want to get to the next level in climbing (E4/5 o/s, sport 7a-b o/s , boulder 7b/c) should I rest more so I feel fresh or buck up my ideas and train harder with more volume even if sometimes I feel I'm not performing due to tiredness? Also are there other people wondering the same things?

Thanks again,

Rodney.     

[Serpico]

It's not there's no exact answer, it's that there's no one-size-fits-all answer. Training recommendations (where they exist) are based on an 'average' person, but it's becoming more apparent now that individual responses to training are more varied than previously thought.
Haston and Patxi don't have opposing views, that implies that one's right and the other wrong, they have training plans that they've tailored to themselves over years, and then there's the age difference; what's appropriate now may not be when you're in your 50s.
If you want to improve and you're currently plateaued, then you have to try other approaches and take the risk that they may not work and your grade may go down, if that happens you learn from it and move on.

[Serpico]

but if you don't have a fair few rest days your muscles won't regenerate and you won't improve

It depends what you are training, how you train it, and how you respond to it. In other sports they look at it as training energy systems and base recovery times on how long it takes the relevant depleted energy source to restore, for most climbing endurance training this is hours rather than days.
Only in particular types of strength training is muscle trauma sufficient to require days of rest, but this strength training can also include what we'd class as high intensity endurance, again it depends on the individual, and the exact training conditions.

[shark]

Rodney,

A good, I think, article here:

http://www.planetfear.com/articles/Neil_Greshams_Guide_to_Resting_180.html

(Its not about kneebar shakeouts)

[JonI]

It's also worth noting that Stevie has done a huge volume of climbing in his career.  I'm not sure that he would get such awesome results from low volume, high intensity training now if he didn't have 30+ years of consistent climbing behind him.
I would just try to add a bit more volume at a low intensity (say an extra session a week), to see how you respond and then gradually build up the intensity over time if things go well.

[Nibile]

my personal experience is that i found it better for me to pass from 4 to 3 sessions per week, with one or two climbing days in the weekend.
so depending on occasions, i could train friday, climb two days and then train again on monday. i address this by selecting the type of training and climbing i do: this last aspect has changed alot recently. i don't do anymore "long" days outdoor. i want to focus on projects or things i want to do fast.
briefly, for me has been very good to cut a session off, but i always train at max intensity when i train.

[Ged]

That jump up from where you are now to E5 ish level/ f7b+ level is easily done with a bit of focus i reckon.  For me, it came from realising the value of periodization.  Looking at what you say you do, maybe cut out some running, and do more bouldering.  Definitely make that a focus for a while at least.  Say a month.  Then a few weeks thrashing yourself on endurance circuits, then back to bouldering.

As i realise that strength gains are becoming more and more incremental, for me it seems to me to be more about timing my peaks well for trips/certain times of the year.

[Nibile]

still on the matter.
volume not only depends on the number of times we train, but also on the intensity we train at. i dare to say that volume and intensity are in an opposite ratio. so, if i want to train 4 or 5 times a week, i also have to be very disciplined, not to overdo at any session. given that the more often you want to train, the more accurate your planning must be, in every session you have to do just what you scheduled and not more. it's very hard, i cannot do it: that's why i decided to cut a session off, because i like to train at max intensity and for as long as i like. if i have finished my daily schedule and i see a friend setting a cool problem, i want to join him.
so training a bit less in terms of number of sessions makes me more free to train harder and longer, allows me to be less disciplined, in some way.
hope this helps.

[roddersm]

Hi all,

Thanks for the responses. Some good stuff here I'll take it on bored. Nothing particularly that I didn't already know, or have some idea off, but it really helps to hear other peoples experiences as opposed to just reading training articles and the science. Sometimes also it is hard to distinguish between listening to your body and resting and being lazy. This is a big challenge I think and something I suppose you can only learn from experience. I think looking back to my early to mid twenties I didn't train hard enough and didn't get as strong or fit as I should have and over the last couple of years I've definitely trained harder and have improved gradually. However where as I was hardly ever injured before I now seem to be picking up constant niggles and seem to be tired a lot off the time. I suppose its just about getting the right balance and trying to peak physically at the right times.     

Cheers all,

Rodney.