[Paul B]

Nice r-man

Good effort on the geekery but I see quite a few problems with your list, for instance your first example tragically died young. Moon; you really think he peaked on Hubble or did he just change focus somewhat (and actually climb his hardest not so many years ago)?

You'd be better of looking at the Spanish climbers, Ramonet, Patxi, Andrada etc., non?

[slackline]

Nice r-man

Good effort on the geekery but I see quite a few problems with your list, for instance your first example tragically died young. Moon; you really think he peaked on Hubble or did he just change focus somewhat (and actually climb his hardest not so many years ago)?

You'd be better of looking at the Spanish climbers, Ramonet, Patxi, Andrada etc., non?

Sounds like the perfect scenario for "time to event" (aka survival analysis) accounting for some right-censoring! 

[r-man]

Nice r-man

Good effort on the geekery but I see quite a few problems with your list, for instance your first example tragically died young. Moon; you really think he peaked on Hubble or did he just change focus somewhat (and actually climb his hardest not so many years ago)?

You'd be better of looking at the Spanish climbers, Ramonet, Patxi, Andrada etc., non?

I was aware of those points, but people don't fit into neat boxes. The aim was a list representing climbers that broke new ground in sport climbing. Not sure the other Spanish climbers have done that, except maybe with onsighting? Andrada has done lots of hard link up things in his cave, including at least one thing graded 9b+, but his website is a nightmare to read, as well as being in Spanish. Also, it was never big news, so I assume it's not generally regarded as "proper" sport climbing?

As far as problems with the list - I think it just shows that shit happens. Moon clearly shifted focus and Gullich had a tragic death - but despite this, they still made significant contributions to the sport. We all know climbing hard (at our own relative levels) places large demands on the rest of life, and requires a bit of good fortune (good location, flexible job, understanding partner, stress-free existence) as well as determination and training. Perhaps the fact that there aren't many top climbers peaking in their 30's indicates that external factors become more pressing than the drive to climb harder.

If climbing continues to grow, maybe there will be more money available to fund the elite and keep them crushing into middle age. But even so, there's only so long anyone can be the best. At some point, the kids are just going to be too hard to keep up with.

[r-man]

Requiem in 83 and Punks in the Gym in 84?

[ducko]

machine, route looks wicked

[Clart]

I don't know what's more shocking - the thought of F9b+ or the lack of comment on here.

Not much to add! the ascent speaks for itself!

Can't wait to see the video.

Ditto, might have to wait for the next adam ondra film....

I hope not, the first one took forever.

Sent from my HTC Desire using Tapatalk 2

[SA Chris]

I don't know what's more shocking - the thought of F9b+ or the lack of comment on here.

Sir Sir Sir, I know the answer to that one!!!

What a daft comment, not everyone sits at their computer all day waiting for the latest tittilation titbit of tip top ascents.

Suffice to say this is an astonishing achievement and I too would like to see the ascent. Is this the route there was a vid of him doing most of recently?

[slackline]

Suffice to say this is an astonishing achievement and I too would like to see the ascent. Is this the route there was a vid of him doing most of recently?

Yes, working the lower section earlier in the year....

[r-man]

Requiem in 83 and Punks in the Gym in 84?

Good points! Though was Requiem the first at its grade ... what is its accepted grade?

Requiem gets 8a+ according to the internet. Punks is 8b/8b+.

[SA Chris]

On another tangent of geekery, when was the last "hardest route in the world" that wasn't on limestone? Maybe Yaniro's Grand Illusion back in the 1970s; thought to have been the first 8a.

First one on granite since then though?

[cowboyhat]

Good points r-man.

Ondra, wow. I have astonishment fatigue, thats why people aren't going on about it.

[Baldy]

On another tangent of geekery, when was the last "hardest route in the world" that wasn't on limestone? Maybe Yaniro's Grand Illusion back in the 1970s; thought to have been the first 8a.

First one on granite since then though?

At the risk of being horribly wrong - I thought I heard someone in the past say that Meltdown was horribly difficult, and at the time might be considered the hardest trad route? That was on granite I believe?

http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=864

Beth's new route; The Meltdown is reportedly "significantly harder than the Optimist" and could be 5.14c/F8c+. This would make it one of the very hardest traditional routes in the world, alongside Rhapsody and Cobra Crack and confirms Rodden's status as one of the worlds top traditional climbers.

[r-man]

I have astonishment fatigue

Me too. But since we are already in the realm of the unbelievable...thinking further into the future, is Ondra going to get to 10a?

Ondra put a lot of time into The Change. Sharma took a similarly long time to do his first big route Realisation, when he was around the same age as Ondra. He needed an epic siege with Jumbo Love before he decided he was at the next level, though now he has done a few at the same grade.

So if Ondra follows this pattern, his Jumbo Love will be 9c, and seems likely in a few years, after he's done a few more 9b+'s.

It would be surprising if Sharma didn't move on from the Jumbo Love level in the next few years. Similarly, if Ondra gets comfortable at 9c in his twenties, another big siege would take him to the next level, 9c+.

But 10a?

Nevermind the numbers, what I find interesting is how and if someone so far ahead of the rest can keep progressing. If Ondra climbs the hardest routes, what has he got to test himself on? How does he know when he's just stepped up a gear? Gullich seemed to manage alright, with the first 8b, 8b+,8c and 9a.

And on another note, it will be great to see the younger kids race through Ondra's testpieces. I think it's inevitable. These aren't Gaskins esoterics, these are classy lines in awesome places.

Waffle over. The future looks exciting.

 

[slackline]

Me too. But since we are already in the realm of the unbelievable...thinking further into the future, is Ondra going to get to 10a?

Waffle over. The future looks exciting.

What I want to know is who is going to confirm the grade!

[Fiend]

All about 10a for sure 

[jwi]

On another tangent of geekery, when was the last "hardest route in the world" that wasn't on limestone? Maybe Yaniro's Grand Illusion back in the 1970s; thought to have been the first 8a.

First one on granite since then though?

Hanshelleren is gneiss, not granite.

[Doylo]

I don't think this will get a repeat for a VERY long time!

[Stubbs]

Hanshelleren is gneiss, not granite.

It was granite before Ondra crushed it!  *rubbish geologist joke*

[jwi]

It was granite before Ondra crushed it!  *rubbish geologist joke*

I giggled...

[tomtom]

Hanshelleren is gneiss, not granite.

It was granite before Ondra crushed it!  *rubbish geologist joke*

Gneiss pun!

[BenF]

You'll get slated for that one Tom. 

Stop now.

[boulderingbacon]

this rock atrocity of jokes is poor i think we should get on topic

[AndyR]

Hanshelleren is gneiss, not granite.

It was granite before Ondra crushed it!  *rubbish geologist joke*

Gneiss pun!

I thought it was pretty schist...

[ducko]

Me too. But since we are already in the realm of the unbelievable...thinking further into the future, is Ondra going to get to 10a?

Waffle over. The future looks exciting.

What I want to know is who is going to confirm the grade!

I agree on this would be good for someone to confirm its difficulty not that I doubt the lad

[Nemo]

Interesting posts r-man.  Continuing the geekery…

"Sharma took a similarly long time to do his first big route Realization" - r-man

Not sure about that - Ondra's done this in one season in around 20 days over 2 trips.  Think Realization was an epic project for Sharma – tried it for ages over many years before finally doing it.  Ondra has still never really had a properly long siege on anything.

"what I find interesting is how and if someone so far ahead of the rest can keep progressing." - r-man

In terms of redpointing Sharma’s still providing competition, which has got to help with the motivation for now at least.  To me the big questions are how close to his limits and to the limits of the sport is he getting.  My guess is that there's still a very long way to go with both, considering that he’s 19, and this is his first year of full time climbing, but who knows?  It doesn’t seem unreasonable though that he could make massive progress in the next decade and climb 10a ish if he can find the right routes.  But of course, a lot of that depends on how wide Ondra himself chooses to make 9b+, 9c etc.

Whereas in bouldering, I think the potential for future progress is much more limited, and that limit is mainly imposed by the rock.  There will undoubtedly be some, but IMO the rock suitable for large numbers of high quality Font 9As just isn’t out there…  Without hard bouldering just focussing on eliminates, I suspect the period of rapid improvements is nearly over.  But in sport climbing, the properly hard routes really are out there – high quality routes in large numbers all over the place in Spain and elsewhere.

"it will be great to see the younger kids race through Ondra's testpieces." - r-man

Maybe.  But to me, this is the other interesting question - How much of a one off is Ondra?  Is he just the first of a long line of people who started climbing at a very young age with lots of talent.  Or are we unlikely to see another Ondra for 50 years.  To me the jury's still out on this...  Clearly the likes of Enzo Oddo etc are very good climbers, but I don't really see anyone else doing quite what Ondra has done from the younger generation just yet?  A combination of his talent, height, finger strength, sheer determination etc etc may be a pretty rare thing even in the long term.  It may be that if Ondra stays psyched and fulfils his potential in the next decade that some of his testpieces aren't repeated for a very, very long time. 

“Andrada has done lots of hard link up things in his cave, including at least one thing graded 9b+” – r-man

Might be wrong on this, but think the potential 9b+ which gets mentioned in that cave (Picachu?) is still a project?  Think the hardest two lines which Andrada has actually done in there, he’s given 9b?  And don’t want to be harsh, but to be fair to Sharma / Ondra it’s perhaps worth pointing out that if you don’t count link up’s in caves, I think Dani’s hardest routes are around the 9a/9a+ mark (stuff like Definicion De Resistencia…)?  Think same is true of Magnus Midtbo?  Cave link ups / traverses always seem to be graded very optimistically – they’re so much easier to work, no fear factor, no / little rope drag, no / few clips, that for the same physical difficulty of moves, they are often much easier to actually climb.

So whilst Ondra and Sharma are moving into 9b+ territory, in terms of “proper” routes, only Sharma, Ondra and Fernandez have climbed 9b (Fernandez just with Chilam Balam.)  Things at the top end of sport climbing seem to be becoming very exclusive…

“Historic” - Doylo

Indeed.  To me at least, I think it makes things clearer to separate out the traverses / long boulders / cave link ups etc (ie: Akira and the Ali Baba Cave etc).  And when you do this, the history of sport climbing actually follows a vaguely sensible timeline…  (Similar list to r-mans but different perspective):

8c: Wall Street (1987 - Gullich), Anais Et Le Canabis (1988 - Fred Nicole), Agincourt (1989 - Moon).
8c+: Liquid Ambar (1990 - Moffatt), Hubble (1990 - Moon), Just Do It (1992 – Tribout).
9a: Action Directe (1991 – Gullich), Om (1992 – Huber), Hugh (1993 – Roughling).
9a+: Open Air (1996 – Huber), Orujo (1998 – Fernandez), Realization (2001 – Sharma).
9b: Chilam Balam (2003 – Fernandez), Jumbo Love (2008 – Sharma), Golpe D’Estado (2008 – Sharma).
9b+: Change (2012 – Ondra).

http://novebi.ning.com/profiles/blogs/from-6a-to-9b-first-ascents-in  - has loads more history for anyone interested in such trainspotting.