[i_a_coops]

I keep hearing that improving capillary density would be a good idea if I wanted to be able to sport climb. I've been told to either lap easy routes at a leading wall or arse around on jugs for half hour stints. Unfortunately, all I have to train on is southern sandstone and the local wall, which is a bouldering wall. I currently can't do circuits on an overhanging woody meaningfully enough to kid myself I might be improving my stamina, and the rock's wet. Also I want to be able to do some kind of stamina training every day, not just when I can afford petrol!

SO today I tried jogging with a 5lb dumbell in each hand. It destroyed my entire arms!! I actually couldn't keep running for more than a few minutes with them, but if I worked up to keeping going for about 10-20 minutes with no breaks, would that help with capillary density? Would it be better to use lighter weights so I didn't get so pumped? Or is the whole plan just going to give me a heart attack? Thanks!

[webbo]

i suspect the main thing it will do is train you to run with dumbells in your hands.

[i_a_coops]

I did suspect that....

But pumping your arms with dumbells is using the forearms and biceps, both of which get tired very quickly on long routes, so I was thinking a bit of a kick up the arse every day from something like this might help a bit?

Since my stamina is SO bad.... (I've bouldered 7B+, admittedly on southern sandstone, and have been totally spanked by a long F7a+. Definitely a discrepancy there. I can train power at the wall for £3, anaerobic endurance on a doorframe, aerobic fitness by running, and I don't have nearly as easy an option for this kind of stamina....

[BB]

According to Horst, improving your strength improves your stamina because your maximal level gets higher. The trouble is that you don't notice the improvement if you keep trying harder and harder routes/problems as your strenght improves.

[webbo]

 doing easy routes or hanging around on jugs sounds like arc training which in its self won't lead you to being able to do sport routes.that is unless you are planning to do long grade 4s.
you would be better doing power endurance which you can easily do on a bouldering wall.you can do stuff like 15/20 hand moves on big holds in to problem,rest for 5mins and repeat 6 times.when you can do it 8 times either shorten the rest or do a harder problem.
people like shark or serpico will have more scientific sessions and will probably reply if you post asking how to go from bouldering to sport routes.

[i_a_coops]

Thanks for replying! Yeah I've been trying to do some longer problems like that, I still don't seem to recover at all when at a 'rest' on a route though - the longer I stay dangling from jugs halfway up a route, even if it's vertical, the worse my arms get. Is that what arc training is about? Training power endurance is fun anyway so I'll keep at it!

[slackline]

I don't have nearly as easy an option for this kind of stamina....

  for four hours with the same hand, then swap over and repeat 

[Mi|es]

I still don't seem to recover at all when at a 'rest' on a route though - the longer I stay dangling from jugs halfway up a route, even if it's vertical, the worse my arms get. 

From the sounds of things, you've misunderstood the concept of a rest on a route.  Even if you're on big holds, hanging around with alot of weight on your arms isn't going to make them feel any better.  You can maybe take a few seconds break to shake them out (in the hope it'll get rid of some lactic acid) but if they're taking alot of your weight then the lactic acid is going to continue to build up.

Is that what arc training is about?

ARC training basically works by stimulating the growth of capiliaries in the forearms which provide a greater number of vessels to transport the lactic acid away from the muscles meaning you can climb longer until the burn kicks in

[Three Nine]

Ian, do 4x4s at the bouldering wall (look it up). They will help your 'sport-route-specific' endurance, and you will be increasing capillary density during your rest periods. Do this not once, but several times a week for several weeks. When the sandstone is dry, pick some hold-based sustained routes and lap them with timed intervals (sandstone is perfect for this as you're top-roping), or do timed intervals on that traverse at Bowles. Also, organize your life to spend a week or so actually doing some sport climbing. All this will make you better at sport climbing.

There are lots of people in your position, who seem to be shit at routes relative to their strength (as indicated by bouldering grade). In my opinion this is not mainly through lack of route fitness etc. - a lot of routes we have in the UK are just not very long and you can just sprint them. Its also not because they are 'strong-but-shit'. Its just that they dont do routes very much. In your case, a bit of experience doing sport routes, a few redpointing 'tricks'  and tactics etc. will probably get you a lot further than any fitness you think you lack. Getting used to not shitting yourself on a rope will also help.

eg. last time we went to Anstey's you fluffed your attempts on Empire because you couldn't remember your sequence. You have to be falling off when you have got all that stuff right before you can really blame fitness etc.

Obviously specific route fitness will always help, but my point is that it probably isn't your biggest problem. Nothing like being used to a thing now is there?

[Yossarian]

I got reasonably fit for sport routes training on the sandstone a few years back.  Well, sandstone and a very small shit board.  I wasn't terribly scientific, other than realising that doing laps on some of the pumpier routes at bowles and harrisons would probably help.

If you need someone to hold your rope then drop me a line. I haven't been out for ages and am pretty unfit, and that sort of stuff would probably do me good...

[mrjonathanr]

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[mrjonathanr]

 I

[chriss]

Why don't you use the 5kg weights as a hammer on your joints as that's pretty much what you are doing running with them. Running is hard enough on knees, ankles etc why make it worse??

I'm a sandstone boy too and as already pointed out there are a few longer routes you could do laps on. I  don't know what grade your at, but at Bowles you have Serenade arete , Digitalis etc....that you can get off of one rope or easier grade's Pig's Nose 4 or so off one set up.
Then you have High rocks, there are loads of harder graded routes that are  more than the usual 5 move sandstone wonders. Same with Harrisons Wolly Bear area etc.....Need I continue?

You just have to be a bastard and hog the lines.

[i_a_coops]

Yossarian that would be great, thanks! - I'll let you know next time I'm heading down - won't be for a while though as there's a university that expects me to turn up and work sometimes. The bastards. Will be lapping Serenade Arete this summer though, I had my eye on linking it into The Thing without the no hands rest at the top. Renascence is supposed to be a sustained line as well, as is Second Generation. Mark, I'd not heard of 4x4s but will definitely be doing that in future, sounds useful. Anyway Empire is going DOWN next week.

And as for wrecking your joints, I don't think I'll try running with weights again - I could hardly walk the next day. Fail.

[chriss]

Yossarian that would be great, thanks! - I'll let you know next time I'm heading down - won't be for a while though as there's a university that expects me to turn up and work sometimes. The bastards. Will be lapping Serenade Arete this summer though, I had my eye on linking it into The Thing without the no hands rest at the top. Renascence is supposed to be a sustained line as well, as is Second Generation. Mark, I'd not heard of 4x4s but will definitely be doing that in future, sounds useful. Anyway Empire is going DOWN next week.

And as for wrecking your joints, I don't think I'll try running with weights again - I could hardly walk the next day. Fail.

My mate (sadly not me) has climbed a fair few of the hard SS routes, I know he found Renasence pumpy along with baooooonus (sp?) at High Rocks.  As far as I am aware Second Generation hasn't seen many repeats so would be worth a look.
Thinking back on my original post there are loads of hard SS routes, but finding a sustained one it tricky.

Might be worth asking on the 'Southern sandstone - the hard routes' facebook page, although I'm sure you know this already.

 

[Yossarian]

Sure thing... Give me a shout a few days before you're thinking of heading down.

I've never managed The Thing. Serenade Arete and Digitalis and all that sort of stuff sounds good.  Haven't been over there in ages!

Would be cool to try Second Generation too...

[abarro81]

doing easy routes or hanging around on jugs sounds like arc training which in its self won't lead you to being able to do sport routes.that is unless you are planning to do long grade 4s.

I disagree, I think high volume lower intensity stuff is awesome for getting fitness for routes. It's unlikely to help at the right end of the tor or the short stuff off the catwalk but it's damn useful on long stuff. I've been doing a lot of aerobic capacity recently (like hard ARCing - 20-40mins, notably a little pumped but never out of control) following talking with Tom Randall and Stu Littlefair... I was only doing 1 PE session per week (plus a bit of getting pumped at malham) before I went to Europe a few weeks ago and felt unusually fit from day 1 - on hard (for me) routes - compared to when I've done more circuits/4x4s and less Aerobic capacity stuff before a trip. Certainly it's perfect for the recovering-at-rests fitness.

From the sounds of things, you've misunderstood the concept of a rest on a route.  Even if you're on big holds, hanging around with alot of weight on your arms isn't going to make them feel any better.  You can maybe take a few seconds break to shake them out (in the hope it'll get rid of some lactic acid) but if they're taking alot of your weight then the lactic acid is going to continue to build up.

I don't agree with that really either. Obviously if you're in a strenuous position you can't rest forever, but being able to get to good holds on fairly steep ground and recover there is damn useful, and fairly essential on long stamina-fests unless you can read moves faster than the wind...