[Dave Garry]

your on Chummer .....I'm warming my thumbs up now .. 

I have little thumbs and a dicky eblow, is there some sort of system we can use to even it out ?

All we need now is a Venue & Time .... plus a few more members of the climbing community.

would the bolt fund put out for the beer d'yea think?   

[Pantontino]

Up until the last couple of seasons, all of my winter climbing had been done in Wales. I've really bored my partners by announcing at the top of every grade V in scotland 'Hmm. I've done harder IVs in Wales.' In my (mid-grade) experience Welsh grades are harder. This might be just because the Welsh guide is so much older, or that the routes haven't been repeated much, but the scales are a way apart at the mo.

A new guide would be the answer. Say the North Atlantic Oscillation manages to dominate and we get seven or eight more of these winters before the warming kicks back in. Enough time to produce and get a return on a guide? I reckon so. Go on Si, take a punt...

Some of the old grades are a joke. Try The Sting at IV/V (we thought VI!); even 'standard' IVs like South Gully or Left hand Y Gully would probably warrant V in Scotland. That said, not all the old grades are wrong - I reckon Maria is right at V, same with Gallipoli at V.

Mind you, people talk of Western Gully being a V - maybe it would just scrape this grade if you take the cop out right hand variant in the middle and the slab pitch is fully iced up, but if you do the direct pitch in the middle and the slab is in typical condition, i.e. mostly ice free it is (imo) VI 6/7. There is a world of difference between this route and classic Scottish Vs.

Baggy admits that he was using very harsh grades with a lot of his new routes last year - both of the supposed IVs of his (Arch Gully and Needle Eye Climb) that I have repeated on Glyder Fach this year I felt were solid Vs (and excellent by the way, if anybody is looking for an alternative to the usual venues).

As for the guide - Andy Newton did contact me about producing a full updated version of the 88 guide (he is keen), but I think a better solution might be to stick to the original plan with Baggy and produce a smaller scale supplement. That way it will definitely be out for next season. Then further down the line pull it all together with a full updated version - after all there is bound to be another wave of new routes next season (which I will describe in hyperbolic news reports as 'Last Great Projects' just to wind Baggy up.  )

[chummer]

after all there is bound to be another wave of new routes next season (which I will describe in hyperbolic news reports as 'Last Great Projects' just to wind Baggy up.  )/quote]

WHAT? You mean there's more than one Si?......

[Dave Garry]

Si

I mentioned this to Pete on sunday - how about a palm sized binder with waterproof/laminated inserts. The binder comes with full coverage at time of print but when all the new routes pop up, you update should you want to, page by page. or by update packages that slot neatly into your shiney binder. I am sure there would be a bit of re-purchase value to this once pages get worn or lost too.   

From a users point of view it would be great, when you are out for the day you just take the pages you need. Vital info on the back and some sort of Add for dead good rope and stuff. 

tis just an idea ...

Checks made payable to the make Dave Garry rich fund

[Ian Parnell]

  I'd buy one.

[Johnny Brown]

Mind you, people talk of Western Gully being a V - maybe it would just scrape this grade if you take the cop out right hand variant in the middle and the slab pitch is fully iced up, but if you do the direct pitch in the middle and the slab is in typical condition, i.e. mostly ice free it is (imo) VI 6/7. There is a world of difference between this route and classic Scottish Vs.

Did this yesterday, which only deepens my confusion. It maybe just in the best nick ever, but it felt like steady V, including the direct middle bit, and if that crux pitch is 7 I'm Ueli Steck. The hardest pitch all day was the second pitch of the direct finish, though, which is down as 4?

I think part of the problem maybe that I did Y-gully left years ago in very lean nick (though still on ice) and have since used it as my benchmark IV. The photo on the wiki of supposedly lean conditions look enormous!

[petejh]

It's me in that photo on Clogwyn Lefthand, I suppose what isn't obvious from the pic is that the ice was rotten, delaminated from the rock and was falling down as I was trying to pull out onto it. I've been on it in good conditions as well which is why I used the term 'lean' in the caption, maybe that's a bit misleading. I know what you mean in that it gets a lot leaner then that and is still climbable.  But yeah that highlights one of the problems (joys?) with defining difficulty for winter conditions, and with photos of winter routes for that matter - a trickle of good ice in the right spot can make so much difference, especially on cruxes.
That slab on W.Gully was bone dry when I did it and it felt like one single very well protected move of 7 to exit the slab. But I know people who've climbed the entire slab on neve and thin ice and it felt like 5 to them. The middle direct pitch certainly felt VI 6 to me seconding and the leader. I entered W.Gully on the topo as VI 6/7 because from consensus it's 'usually' harder than most V 's which aren't graded from 1980's Welsh grades. Maybe it should be entered as V 5 - VI 7, as should so many winter routes, but this looks a bit messy. Good example - Devil's Kitchen has ranged from being a single pitch IV 6 to a grade I snow plod over the years (according to legend!)

Hey, it's winter climbing and there's so many variables involved, lots more than sport and summer trad and we can't even agree on some sport grades, so there's no hope with some winter routes like W.Gully

Alaska grade 1 - 3 should cover most winter routes in the UK. Anything above that gets ABO. Simple.

I'm sticking to drytooling mountain trad roofs from now on, at least you know what to expect 

[Johnny Brown]

Good knowledge Pete. Every route I do I seem to get further away from understanding the grade!

Yesterday there was plenty of snice stuck to the crux slab though it mostly fell straight off. I wasn't expecting the two massive spike footholds underneath that appeared from underneath though, from stood on the second there were good placements high left and you were away. Great neve lower down though, I think it's just in really good nick.

Alaska grade 1 - 3 should cover most winter routes in the UK. Anything above that gets ABO. Simple.

That's my kind of grading system!

[petejh]

Ahh that would explain it. Great photo that. I know people who've done that pitch in that nick but I've never seen a photo, nice one, yes very good nick. That last move you mention, when there's just dry rock/shallow turf to reach for it's pretty tenuous and fall off-able. (That photo would look good on the topo btw if you're interested!)

[Pantontino]

Adam, I don't think it is that confusing really - the simple truth is that some routes vary enormously in difficulty, others don't.

And winter climbing is never going to be as definiable as summer rock climbing, even the most subtle change in snow/ice consistency can change a route from desperate to steady.

When I did WG with Adam Wainwright earlier this year we were both shocked by how full on it felt for a supposed V - it wasn't that early in the season, we had both been out loads climbing supposedly harder routes, but neither of us could equate what we were experiencing with Scottish grade V.

We thought the lower 3 pitch was 5 and serious (tricky move into a niche which would have been nasty to fall off), the middle direct probably VI 6 (the start was thin and steep; even once I was wedged in the main chimney/groove it felt pretty sketchy) and the slab pitch perhaps tech 7 - it was completely bare save for a dribble of thin ice in the groove on the left.

Funny old world. 

(Interesting angle on the pic of the slab pitch - the snow must have been well banked out to get in position for that!)

[petejh]

We thought the lower 3 pitch was 5 and serious (tricky move into a niche which would have been nasty to fall off),

I led that pitch and also found it quite hard/scary/crappy gear, - however don't tell anyone else  but there's actually a bomber wire behind your head out left on that niche and which is hard to spot on the tunnel vision lead. I missed it but my second pointed it out as he ambled up the pitch and it protects the tricky niche nicely 

[El Mocho]

I had just persuaded Adam that, based on our performance on WG, we were ready to 'step it up' on to some VIIs and maybe even some VIIIs. There I was dreaming of Traversty, Engineers slab... and now it is going to be back to those grade V gullies.

Loving all these winter threads, maybe we need a whole new sub forum to keep us keen over the summer 'Welsh Winter Chuffin'.

Pritch: what is all this talk of English 7a? Are you tripping. I once had a dream where I imagined an 7a move but then I woke up in a cold sweat.

[Johnny Brown]

I don't think it is that confusing really

Well you see its just that having heard all these stories we went up there expecting a fight... and  ended up doing a daft variation to the last pitch just to get some spice in!

We thought the lower 3 pitch was 5 and serious (tricky move into a niche which would have been nasty to fall off), the middle direct probably VI 6 (the start was thin and steep; even once I was wedged in the main chimney/groove it felt pretty sketchy) and the slab pitch perhaps tech 7 - it was completely bare save for a dribble of thin ice in the groove on the left.

Interesting! Those tricky steps were still there, but they tended to have bomber neve above and over very quickly. Now's the time to do it!

Reading my old guide, it pretty much describes the route exactly as it was yesterday - ie brilliant nick, steady V, whereas the wiki seems to be tending towards describing the more common lean/ marginal conditions. Neither is right or wrong of course but on which you place the emphasis? I guess the weather of the next couple of seasons will decide...

based on our performance on WG, we were ready to 'step it up' on to some VIIs and maybe even some VIIIs.

I'm still believing it word. We were amazing up there. I didn't know that kind of a connnection was possible with another human being.

[El Mocho]

I'm still believing it word. We were amazing up there. I didn't know that kind of a connnection was possible with another human being.

Pity you weren't as connected with all my gear which you kept chucking off the route 

Carefull with this talk, next thing you know and you'll have split up with Ellie and moved to Slovenia.

You fancy another trip over next week? Maybe wednesday?

[Johnny Brown]

Dropping gear is just another way I was channelling Steve House.

I'm psyched out of my tiny mind. Forecast looks good mon-tues at the mo.

[Pantontino]

And now there is another IX, courtesy of yer man Petejh:

http://news.v12outdoor.com/2010/03/08/traversty-direct-ix-9/

All this beautiful alpine weather and the snow is refusing to budge from the peaks. I was nursing a LLAMFF hangover yesterday so ended up climbing on Yellow Wall at Gogarth - sweating in a t-shirt! Hoping to get back on the white stuff one day this week.

[Johnny Brown]

Wowzers.

You can't ask for much more than a choice of Gogarth in a t-shirt or quality mixed climbing.  Life is good right now.

[Dave Garry]

Well you did better than I this weekend Si.

I watched Pete grunt his way up his new line, Lurgyfide and feeling like shite ..chose not to climb due to the super melt that turned du into a shower. In the pub by 2pm, Dave Mac at LLAMFF by 6pm, pub again then party till ?

Sunday was not a climbing day ... breathing was hard enough.

Still got the lurgy today... 

Well Done again Pete......  Vii 9 you say ?     

[Pantontino]

Dave, I also managed to go bouldering on Sat whilst nursing an equally bad hangover from the Friday night George and Noel quiz followed by late night Fricsan partying, and still made it back to the village to see Caff and Pete/Jack's lectures. Crazy weekend!

Feeling pretty flaked out today, but just making arrangements for tomorrow now...

[Pantontino]

Oh, forgot to say, I've just seen Miles and he described Traversty Direct as a bit like a V6 boulder problem (or a V4 at the Indy Wall  )!

[Johnny Brown]

Did Dave Mac get to sample a bit of welsh climbing then?

[Ian Parnell]

Well done Pete, Travesty Direct had been in the back of my mind but you snooze you lose.

[petejh]

Thanks, it's a cracking pitch and I hope someone tries to O/S it soon.

I replied to your post on ukcommercial.

[chummer]

Wowzers.

You can't ask for much more than a choice of Gogarth in a t-shirt or quality mixed climbing.  Life N. Wales is good right now.

 Soo good to come back home to two new mega lines on Clogwyn Du from Pete and Andy and this awesome sunny weather. There is no where else I'd rather be right now, if only there was some powder laden slopes too...   

Those tricky steps were still there, but they tended to have bomber neve above and over very quickly. Now's the time to do it!

Then that's what we'll do tomorrow then. Happy days!

[Johnny Brown]

Sounds like conditions have been best first thing. Worth getting up early!