[Caesar Power]

...for weights training?

Over the last couple of months I've been trying 30 reps (x3 sets) for all sorts of exercises. It's totally exhausting and time consuming, and wondered if upping the weights and reducing the reps will help me see more gains and take less time! I've read all sorts about high number of reps being bad for elbows/shoulders, but I've had no problems so far (rare for me!). I would have thought that using heavier weights would carry more risk of pulling something and being the proud owner of tweaky joints. Any advice?

[rodma]

...for weights training?

Over the last couple of months I've been trying 30 reps (x3 sets) for all sorts of exercises. It's totally exhausting and time consuming, and wondered if upping the weights and reducing the reps will help me see more gains and take less time! I've read all sorts about high number of reps being bad for elbows/shoulders, but I've had no problems so far (rare for me!). I would have thought that using heavier weights would carry more risk of pulling something and being the proud owner of tweaky joints. Any advice?

It would help everyone out if we knew what you are trying to achieve by your weigh training 

[Caesar Power]

Trying to achieve more strength! More specifically back and shoulders. Still prioritising climbing/fingerboard/variety of pullups, but contact dermititis is hindering how much time I can spend climbing without the skin on my hand falling off!
Thought weights would be a good idea so I can increase training time without causing more damage.
If you mean trying to achieve better endurance or raw power, I'm shite at both, so err, both!

[shark]

You are doing far too many reps. 3-6 reps is more effective for strength training.

For effective, varied and less time consuming exercises also look into complex training. If you goodle istvan javorek on youtube there are some videos you can follow with dumbell and barbell complex exercises.

[nodder]

http://stuff.mit.edu/afs/sipb/user/yandros/doc/TWFH.html

Only managed to stick to this once, found it pretty good.  As you seem to have already done the super grim bit at the start you may as well finish it off.  It will in theory give you all round betterness. 

[Jaspersharpe]

Over the past three months I've been doing weights in an attempt to A - stop getting pulled muscles in my weak back and B - try to get my puny arm strength somewhere near my finger strength.

As Simon says, the max I do is six reps in sets of three. I've increased the weight on most exercises by around 50% in this time so it must be working. How this will relate to climbing I have no idea as my arms are still fucking weak but I'm going to continue as making quantifiable gains on a weekly basis is good fun.

 

nodder - that looks like it would work but be fucking hard work for one so lazy and time constrained as I. Longest session I do is about 45 mins btw.

[Caesar Power]

Yep I read that WFH link a while ago and based by current routine on it with a few mods. If you keep switching muscle groups for each exercise I can get it done in just over 1hr, before going very dizzy and nearly passing out!
Why is x30 far too many reps? Is it not cost effective (effort vs results) or more potential for injury, or both? If so, why?
I'm still convinced that heavier weights = higher injury risk.
Let's see!

[nodder]

Its not that its not effective, its that it will make you fitter/leaner, as opposed to stronger. As far as I understand it (no real knowledge at all) is that 3-6 reps as explosively as possible will increase your power, doing them slower will increase your strength. 

[SA Chris]

stop getting pulled muscles in my weak back

have you tried using theraband for this? Great for strenghening stabilisers. I am a real convert now, and try and use it daily.

[Jaspersharpe]

Apart from one minor shoulder tweak when I tried to up the weight too quickly I've been fine injury wise.

The key is not to push it too much. I do three sets of each exercise and only once I can comfortably do all three at a certain weight for two or three sessions do I up the weight. Then just do one set at the higher weight the others at the lower weight and step it up gradually like that.

I'm a dunce about weight training but this seems to be working for me.

Oh and remember that form is vital. I see some lads at the gym hefting weights that are way too heavy for them about, throwing their whole body into bicep curls etc. This is fucking stupid, doesn't train the intended muscle and is a fast track to injury. Instead of thinking they can curl 22kg they should be dropping down to 10s or 12s and doing it properly. There's no shame in being weak and you wont stay weak for long if you do it properly.

stop getting pulled muscles in my weak back

have you tried using theraband for this? Great for strenghening stabilisers. I am a real convert now, and try and use it daily.

No but if it happens again I'll certainly look into it.

[webbo]

Yep I read that WFH link a while ago and based by current routine on it with a few mods. If you keep switching muscle groups for each exercise I can get it done in just over 1hr, before going very dizzy and nearly passing out!
Why is x30 far too many reps? Is it not cost effective (effort vs results) or more potential for injury, or both? If so, why?
I'm still convinced that heavier weights = higher injury risk.
Let's see!

look at another way. marathon runners lots of steps(i.e reps) sprinters not so many steps.whose the strongest.

[i.munro]

I've increased the weight on most exercises by around 50% in this time

50% good effort sir! If I managed that I could do the long-sort one armer.
Can I ask how you fit this in/around climbing , if you do?

[Jaspersharpe]

Simple, I haven't! Gym three times a week. Going to The Works for the first time since July tomorrow and hoping not to crock myself again.

150% of not a lot is still not a lot. Think I'm going to do 2 x gym 1 x climbing for a while and see how it goes.

[Tris]

try to get my puny arm strength

In your avatar pic, your arms look pretty strong to me - I would work on your legs instead 

[i.munro]

Simple, I haven't!

Ah. Don't think I've got the dedication for that. I kind of like climbing.
Still impressed though if I get 1 10% improvement in one phase I'm well chuffed.

[Lund]

The consensus is that it isn't just total volume that you're looking at, the number of reps and sets is important too.

You need to train to failure in all cases; if 10 reps is the target, you should fail on or around 10 - not just get to 10 and then stop because you've hit 10.  You also need to maintain good form - otherwise you're wasting a percentage of your time, and you're more likely to get injured.

You also need a good amount of variation, as doing the same exercise week after week won't hit all the spots; this is especially true for weight training which tends to isolate a muscle.

Depending on your protein intake, body type and the like:
- less than 3 reps doesn't do much
- between 3 and about 6 tends to increase muscle recruitment, without increasing the size and weight of the muscle much
- between about 8 and 12 you increase muscle size through hypertrophy
- about 12, you convert muscle fibres from type II to I.  (I think it's that way round).  White muscle cells that specialize in power and operate anaerobically convert to red which operate aerobically and specialize in endurance.

So if you want power, you want low reps.  You probably want to be in the 3-6 range, so you don't get massive and have to lift more mass up the rock.

Fundamentally, you'll get a certain amount of endurance anyway - especially given that you'll need to do warmup sets.  That is, start with a low weight where you do about 15, then with each set increaes the weight and decrease the reps until you get to about 8 ish at maybe 75% of the target weight.  Then change muscle group for a rest and warm that up, before doing say 6 sets of 3-6 reps at a maxiumum weight and really put some effort in.

It'll take quite a while by the way - you won't be able to do the whole thing in 45 minutes.  That's true even if you separate body areas out on different days like you'll need to (doing say shoulders and chest one day, back and arms another or whatnot).

[a dense loner]

what a lot of nonsense i've read, if you want to get stronger do less reps with more weight. there is nothing else to it
disclaimer: if you do less than one rep you won't get stronger

caesar why are you convinced that heavier weights = higher injury risk. of course it does, that doesn't mean its not effective for getting stronger. using a campus board = higher injury risk. running faster = higher injury risk.

[rodma]

what a lot of nonsense i've read, if you want to get stronger do less reps with more weight. there is nothing else to it
disclaimer: if you do less than one rep you won't get stronger

caesar why are you convinced that heavier weights = higher injury risk. of course it does, that doesn't mean its not effective for getting stronger. using a campus board = higher injury risk. running faster = higher injury risk.

 

I've also found that 6-8 reps worked pretty well for me (also having the benefit of this being about the max. no. of hardish moves in a row on a problem), but then I can't put on muscle for toffee

[Lund]

what a lot of nonsense i've read, if you want to get stronger do less reps with more weight. there is nothing else to it
disclaimer: if you do less than one rep you won't get stronger

caesar why are you convinced that heavier weights = higher injury risk. of course it does, that doesn't mean its not effective for getting stronger. using a campus board = higher injury risk. running faster = higher injury risk.

There's a bit more to it, obviously, but if you only take one thing away from the discussion, should be to stop fannying around with baby weights.  Not your fault - you probably had an induction at the gym from some lad who failed all his GCSEs and thus has no business pretending to explain sports science to people.

On the injury front, that's also true:

http://ajs.sagepub.com/content/15/2/168.abstract

Interestingly, and again maybe obviously, sprinting puts more strain on the supporting elements like tendons and thus causes injuries to those; the intensity means that they happen more often.  Marathon runners mostly just break shit from repeated impacts.

Biggest thing though is that "training error" causes most injuries.  Be careful out there people.  And boot the punters off the campus board by telling them that they can't use it as they don't know what they're doing...

[richdraws]

Muscles like to be targeted in 3 ways and for your sport you should lean towards the most specific but not exclude the others.

Speed - this need not be flinging something as fast as you can. Power pull ups are good but you are reducing speed after the inital pull You can use bands or chains so that the weight increases as you get higher which makes your muscles accelerate throughout the movement.

Speed should be around 2-3 reps probably 2 is best.

More in a bit

[lagerstarfish]

if you do less than one rep you won't get stronger

My own experiments corroborate this this

[richdraws]

The repetition method is simple heavier weights lower reps for strength, medium weights for strength endurance and low weight high reps are good for restoration. Here is some positive words about high reps 100-200 reps by some big powerlifter mother fuckers...
http://westside-barbell.com/westside-articles/PDF.Files/01PDF/The%20Repetition%20Method.pdf

[Gus]

Right then, listen up all. I've always managed to avoid the weight training threads on climbing forums but it's time to speak up.

Here's what I would do if I wanted to get stronger/ bigger muscles (the two are related, there's no avoiding it)

Training's all about effort innit, you get out what you put in, so whilst everyone generally does three sets (of 10, 8, 6, whatever) do four sets, that extra one will make all the difference.

First set is a warm up set, aim for around 12-15 reps to get the muscle and joints moving, second set of around 10 reps feeling hard to finish the last one. The next two are where it counts, these are the work sets and the ones that will provide the stimulus for your muscles to get stronger, aim for about 8 reps, but you should be failing on the last one, if you manage 8, try and do another and add weight when you next do them so you fail around 8.

Most people would stop there, feeling contented that they had tried hard. They haven't. One extra set is where it's all about, another work set of trying to do 8 reps, hopefully you will fail on the 8th, but if you fail on the 6th or 7th no worries and good effort for doing that one extra.

That's it, it's as simple as that. Anyone who doubts the effectiveness of this ask dense or Jim about the state of my arms/ shoulders etc from doing this regularly about 10 years ago. The result= big strong muscles that won't go away (no matter how much I diet/ run/ get pushed around in a wheelchair.

Smash it up.
Gus

[Krank]

So if 4 is better than 3, is 5 better than 4? Anyone know what the optimum number of sets would be?
Gus have you got any science to back up 4 over 3, or is it just personal experience??

[nodder]

The result= big strong muscles that won't go away (no matter how much I diet/ run/ get pushed around in a wheelchair.

So what your saying is that weights are shit for climbing because they make you too heavy?  Or that this is a shit way too do it because it makes you too heavy?  Either way sounds like its worth avoiding your method surely?