[tallsop]

So its all very well picking holes in this, but what have you added thats actually constructive, helping us to either the answer or the cure? Nothing. I'm sure that's a great lesson for Tallsop.

I thought slopers idea of three tries then move on was a good idea - might adjust it to 5 goes a session? makes sense and could help limit erosion? would also probs help mentally, got to get in 5 goes or ill have to wait till next time! make every go count?

[Sloper]

The three goes was something 'imposed' at the Bridestones due to the erosion at the place, if you've seen Jerry's arete you'll know what I mean.

Basically if you can't climb it in style in three goes move on. Cue people mentioning the huge number of times I've broken this rule, just goes to show rules are for the obeyance of fools and the guidance of wise men.

[tallsop]

just goes to show rules are for the obeyance of fools and the guidance of wise men.

Wow....thats deep man... 

[Johnny Brown]

erm..... you watched ben bransby on grit flick?they sell that as a highball.worked on a rope.

Well highballs are blurred, especially first ascents. Personally I don't give a toss how you or Al Lee wants to classify it, as far as I'm concerned (and 99% of UKB I'm sure) bouldering does not involve ropes.

A 3 or 5 go rule is a nice idea, though for me its rather arbitrary and contrived. Climbing ground-up is not contrived, its the basic premise of the sport.

Whats more important when bouldering  is engaging your brain - using a mat to protect the ground and keep mud off your boots, making sure your boots are clean, being aware of how soft the rock is, and stopping if you think you are damaging it.

[Sloper]

Of course the 3 / 5 go 'rule' is arbitrary and largely unenforceable, however if it pervades and becomes the norm then helps, after all no one's going to tell a visiting californian that they've had their three goes on Careless Torque, but on the other hand a local punter having their 15th go on Zippy's traverse mught be politely told to try something else or come back another day.

if you're preparede to come back another day you're less likely to use offensive donkey lines, wire brush, scream abuse etc etc

It's all about the attitude and the attitude is a product of the ethic.

[SA Chris]

stopping if you think you are damaging it.

There lies the rub. Thinking is not often at the forefront of many people's thoughts.

[Johnny Brown]

Of course the 3 / 5 go 'rule' is arbitrary and largely unenforceable, however if it pervades and becomes the norm then helps,

I don't think its achievable as a pervading ethic - I'm not sure its why folk go bouldering unfortunately. You or I might enjoy a big circuit day with a three go rule, but I think the majority aim to warm up and then session a particular problem or two. I don't see an answer other than stressing respect for the rock.

There lies the rub. Thinking is not often at the forefront of many people's thoughts.

Maybe. Though I think this generation will be aware more than ever that you can't just do what you like and ignore the consequences.

[Sloper]

From what I've seen the attitude is precisely that; it almost always takes the form 'what I'm doing (eg top roping a classic VS)  doesn't hurt anyone else so I'm perfectly entitled to do it' and this is often coupled with things along the lines of 'well there's so much chalk on it already my excessive use doesn't make a difference' and 'if it's ok for people opening new routes to use a wire brush why can't I use one on this clean 4+ problem'.

In short as things eg cars, cameras, climbing kit becomes cheaper and we become more affluent the 'me generation' and 'have it now' attitude means that people are less aware of the consequences of their actions and more likely to ignore the consequences of their actions.

After all how many 'grim up north london' eco luvvies do you see buying 'organic' veg flown in from Peru and listen to banging on about their multiple overseas holidays.

I know it's depressing but I am very pessimistic about societal mores and attitudes.

[Johnny Brown]

Well I know where you're coming from but I do believe that climbing and being outdoors generally is a force for good in this world.

[Sloper]

It is, but that's only because it requires some effort, sadly the amount of effort required is dminishing and the number of fuktards in increasing, see any media reporting of idiots going up Snowdon in November without waterproofs etc and the behaviour at the crag in general.

Anyway enough of this I'm off for a meaningless drive to buy some disposable nappies and battery farmed chicken wrapped in plastic ohh yeah and some aerosols, can you still get CFC based ones?

[dave]

seing as everything is so shit slopes, you may as well just kill youself and get it over with. you're going to die anyway eventually.

[butters]

He is just depressed because he lost at cribbage in the Sheaf last night - all will be sweetness and light in his life again once he watches England get turned over in the Rugby at the weekend. 

[Sloper]

Care to mention the score on the trip to Ireland?

Anyway, I'm a neutral tomorrow the real match is sunday in Dublin.

[dr crimp]

Of course the 3 / 5 go 'rule' is arbitrary and largely unenforceable, however if it pervades and becomes the norm then helps,

I don't think its achievable as a pervading ethic - I'm not sure its why folk go bouldering unfortunately. You or I might enjoy a big circuit day with a three go rule, but I think the majority aim to warm up and then session a particular problem or two. I don't see an answer other than stressing respect for the rock.

There lies the rub. Thinking is not often at the forefront of many people's thoughts.

Maybe. Though I think this generation will be aware more than ever that you can't just do what you like and ignore the consequences.

ok. so you gave angels share highball font 7c+.was this part of you're black rocks circuit and sent within 3 goes?or did you warm up and session it.the latter i belive!

[Johnny Brown]

Angels's Share took about ten goes, and in the same session I did every other route/ problem on the block to warm up/ down within the three go rule. So somewhere in between. Could I have done better? Certainly yes. Does the grade mean much? No. The moves would feel much easier without the fall, but neither is it E7 with pads; folk will demand an opinion, highball 7c+ is my best approximation.

My whole point here is that rules are not the way forward. I believe in a ground up ethic because to me its the most basic premise of the sport. Its the antithesis of the 'tick by any means' approach, and I think by adopting it you are far more likely to treat the rock with respect. But the only thing that will preserve the rock is intelligent use, and if ground-up becomes the fashion no doubt it will attract idiots who miss the point.

[slackline]

Angels's Share took about ten goes, and in the same session I did every other route/ problem on the block to warm up/ down within the three go rule. So somewhere in between. Could I have done better? Certainly yes. Does the grade mean much? No. The moves would feel much easier without the fall, but neither is it E7 with pads; folk will demand an opinion, highball 7c+ is my best approximation.

My whole point here is that rules are not the way forward. I believe in a ground up ethic because to me its the most basic premise of the sport. Its the antithesis of the 'tick by any means' approach, and I think by adopting it you are far more likely to treat the rock with respect. But the only thing that will preserve the rock is intelligent use, and if ground-up becomes the fashion no doubt it will attract idiots who miss the point.

The highlighted point is your ethic, i.e. rule, not necessarily everyone else's.

T'is a good one though, and similar to my own, but others will have different beliefs that aren't in the vein of ground up.

I do, in general, agree with you, but the crux is convincing those who don't share this stand point that its a good place to be.

[Johnny Brown]

Yes, that's what I was trying to say. Its my personal ethic, not a rule I expect others to comply with. I don't believe rules are appropriate in climbing, I do believe in folk taking time to consider their own ethics.

[Sloper]

I too dislike the idea of rules being applied to climbing but I am in favour of ethical norms and mores being imposed in a quasi rule like manner, e.g. no bolts on traditional crags.

The more established rules and mores, which are approaching what some would consider as 'memes' are fine, the difficulty arises when you have new developments that render the old memes or mores less valid; take for example chalk. 

At first it was controversial there was the clean hand gang, then it became accepted on ";owt 'arder than VS" and now?  Well it's clear that some folk almost chalk up when walking up to the crag.  In fact the moral standard with regard to chalk has yet to settle hence the debate over tick marks and so on.

As for people thinking and applying their own ethic in a subjective manner; think of the circumstances where this is considered valid: in short there aren't many.  The application of ethics, mores and memes are almost always considered with reference to the affects on others.

Sadly we know that young blokes don't actually think about others that much, I think it's rare to come across considerate 19 year old blokes; so bring about the outcomes that we desire we need a framework which predisposes the individual to conform.

This pressure to conform I think sits rather well with climbing as, to be blunt you're conforming with a non conformist tradition and can draw from and position yourself within that history.

A bit like goths, gosh aren't they individual and rebellious?

[Shy Yorkshireman]

A bit like goths, gosh aren't they individual and rebellious?

Yep good point. I'm off to the kitchen now to find me a blunt bottle opener and self harm, that'll show em.