[Sloper]

Incidentally has anyone else had a play on the supposed direct start to the right?  Ok to get stood up in the break but it seems a very long way to the poor pocket.  Anyone?

Ohh yeah and ground up is the only way to do routes like this and maintain any personal credibility.

[dr crimp]

Your logbook shows you failing to onsight low E grades yet constantly attempting to toprope E5/E6/E7/E8.  I honestly thought it was a bit of a myth that there were people out there trying to toprope stuff way, way beyond their capabilities.


when was the last time you felt inspired/strong and spied a line you were almost certain you could do but didn't fancy two broken legs?(accepted some of the nurses at the hallemshire are tidy)i'd bet a pound to a penny climbing on grit wouldn't be where it is today were it not for the humble top rope.i accept styles of accent have moved forward and the use of mats allows us to try routes in a purer style, but come on cards on the table i bet 90% of people posting on her are guilty of the odd cheeky top rope at some point in there climbing career.

[BenF]

when was the last time you felt inspired/strong and spied a line you were almost certain you could do but didn't fancy two broken legs?(accepted some of the nurses at the hallemshire are tidy)i'd bet a pound to a penny climbing on grit wouldn't be where it is today were it not for the humble top rope.i accept styles of accent have moved forward and the use of mats allows us to try routes in a purer style, but come on cards on the table i bet 90% of people posting on her are guilty of the odd cheeky top rope at some point in there climbing career.

Ok so I'll bite that.

An odd cheeky toprope?  Have you actually seen the logbook in question?  Best onsight E1 but repeatedly trying E7's on a toprope, get a grip this is way beyond "having a look" at a harder climb because you're dead keen and want to get better.  Most of the listed ascents in the logbook are topropes.  Anyway, enough said I'll p*ss off and stop grumbling now.

[tallsop]

hey guys, all fair comments. I cant beleive people are still posting on this thread!
Firstly,id like to apologise to mr long, the comments in question were written after quite a few pints, and i tend to get a bit (unjustly) uppety about things when that happens!  Adam is an extraordinary talent, and i respect his ethical practises.

Yes, my logbook sucks, and im quite aware that my head isnt where my body is at the moment. if you would have looked more closely at my lobook and wish list, you would perhaps notice that a) i have been doinng lots of bouldering lately, so i can become better, stronger and more confident in my ability b)i have started to try and do some hard/safe/falloffable routes ground up, and c) that the majority of routes on my wish list are routes with good gear, and are generally groundupable.

This is (ill be honest)partly as a result of this despute, and as a result of me becoming bored of top roping, ive realised lately that if i do something on a top rope, i dont really feel like/see the point in leading it.

I also noticed that by spending last year toproping, i never  seemed to get anything led, out of like twenty/thirty routes that i top roped, i only led 2! so yeah, that was a bit of a wake-up-call.

Once again, adam - i sincerely apoligise for my comments,and i completely withdraw them.

i alo promise never to leave a  tick mark on a problem again (i even cleaned three off T-crack yesterday!!! - my present to you  ) and as an eternal good will gesture, i vow to clean off at least one tick mark each time i go out

happy crankin, much love, The piss artist formerly known as Tom 'TR' Allsop 

[dave]

i'd bet a pound to a penny climbing on grit wouldn't be where it is today were it not for the humble top rope.

To be fair I doubt the history of gritstone climbing owes much to the serial toproping by aspirant E1 leaders. Not since the 1940s anyway.

Anyway good to see a decent reply there by tallsop.

[nik at work]

Nice one Tallsop.

[BenF]

Yes, my logbook sucks, and im quite aware that my head isnt where my body is at the moment. if you would have looked more closely at my lobook and wish list, you would perhaps notice that a) i have been doinng lots of bouldering lately, so i can become better, stronger and more confident in my ability b)i have started to try and do some hard/safe/falloffable routes ground up, and c) that the majority of routes on my wish list are routes with good gear, and are generally groundupable.

This is (ill be honest)partly as a result of this despute, and as a result of me becoming bored of top roping, ive realised lately that if i do something on a top rope, i dont really feel like/see the point in leading it.

I also noticed that by spending last year toproping, i never  seemed to get anything led, out of like twenty/thirty routes that i top roped, i only led 2! so yeah, that was a bit of a wake-up-call.

I take it all back.  Nicely articulated, keep it up and I'm sure you'll feel that you're achieving more.  You're obviously enjoying onsighting/ground upping more than toproping, so nice one.  More apologies for yet more potentially condescending comments by me!

[dr crimp]

i'd bet a pound to a penny climbing on grit wouldn't be where it is today were it not for the humble top rope.

To be fair I doubt the history of gritstone climbing owes much to the serial toproping by aspirant E1 leaders. Not since the 1940s anyway.

Anyway good to see a decent reply there by tallsop.

lets be fair most  e6/7 routes and above on grit were not put up by aspirant E1 leaders but many were practiced on top rope prior to the first ascent.any repeat weather it be with mats,without,after abseil or top rope inspection is still a good effort,and is ethically in line with style of the first ascent.


well in tallsop.

[andy popp]

I don't think you need to apologise Ben, it was fair comment on the logbook as it stood but Tallsop also deserves some credit for his response and generally seeing the light.

[andy popp]

any repeat weather it be with mats,without,after abseil or top rope inspection is still a good effort,and is ethically in line with style of the first ascent.

No.

[dr crimp]

sorry to rattle you're cage andy.obviously ground up is ethically the purist way,and any improvement on style of ascent highly commended.in retrospect can see why you were so blunt.

[dave]

any repeat weather it be with mats,without,after abseil or top rope inspection is still a good effort,and is ethically in line with style of the first ascent.

No.

the first ascentionist is climbing without the benefit of the knowledge that the route already exists at whatever particular grade. everyone else afterwards is, and is at an advantage, and as a route acrues more and more ascents this factor only greatens (is that a word?).

[r-man]

(is that a word?)

Yes.

[dr crimp]

any repeat weather it be with mats,without,after abseil or top rope inspection is still a good effort,and is ethically in line with style of the first ascent.

No.

the first ascentionist is climbing without the benefit of the knowledge that the route already exists at whatever particular grade. everyone else afterwards is, and is at an advantage, and as a route acrues more and more ascents this factor only greatens (is that a word?).

fair point.(a general consensus being reached then recorded in the local book of lies)

[dave]

there's also that theory that the more often something is done, the easier it is for people as a collective to do it again.

[Fiend]

any repeat weather it be with mats,without,after abseil or top rope inspection is still a good effort,and is ethically in line with style of the first ascent.

No.

the first ascentionist is climbing without the benefit of the knowledge that the route already exists at whatever particular grade. everyone else afterwards is, and is at an advantage, and as a route acrues more and more ascents this factor only greatens (is that a word?).

Exactly the sort of point I'd be arguing half a decade ago and getting shouted down by X amount of people 

Tallsop, good reply, hope you keep progressing stylistically.

dr crimp - being able to do a route is not just about being physically strong enough to do it on a top-rope, it's about being mentally strong enough to do it as a climb. It's an overall experience and an overall challenge, not just a series of moves.

[dr crimp]

any repeat weather it be with mats,without,after abseil or top rope inspection is still a good effort,and is ethically in line with style of the first ascent.

No.

the first ascentionist is climbing without the benefit of the knowledge that the route already exists at whatever particular grade. everyone else afterwards is, and is at an advantage, and as a route accrues more and more ascents this factor only greatens (is that a word?).

Exactly the sort of point I'd be arguing half a decade ago and getting shouted down by X amount of people 

Tallsop, good reply, hope you keep progressing stylistically.

dr crimp - being able to do a route is not just about being physically strong enough to do it on a top-rope, it's about being mentally strong enough to do it as a climb. It's an overall experience and an overall challenge, not just a series of moves.

dave ,i'm fully aware of the overall challenge.being born and bred on on grit and having climbed with some the best gritoners in the country over my climbing career i know exactly what wicket you're batting off.i have climbed e7 ground up and headpoint e8 on grit.can see how you took what i said the wrong way.obviously any improvement on style of ascent is to be commended.and we should all be be striving for the ultimate.however,my point was should someone top rope a route before leading it,if the route was worked on top rope before the first lead its been repeated in the style of the first ascent...i.e pre practised(not battered into submission).And its worth noteing that many notable british climbers top  rope hard routes before an ascent/headpoint(u seen grit flick?)for an up to date example.should all boulder problems be repeated in the the style of first ascent(battered into submission,tried on a regular basis until successful ,flashed?).guess the most important thing on grit is respect and care for the routes and the style they are attempted in whatever the grade.

[Jaspersharpe]

I don't think it's dave you were meaning to reply to there. Quotes can be a bitch. 

[dave]

It probably wasn't me he was replying to, but still a couple of points:

i have climbed e7 ground up and headpoint e8 on grit.

have this one on the house:

however,my point was should someone top rope a route before leading it,if the route was worked on top rope before the first lead its been repeated in the style of the first ascent...i.e pre practised(not battered into submission)

that fact is the putting up a new route is fundamentally different from repeating an established route. A headpoint of an established route is worse style than a headpoint of an unclimbed route. Even if you turned up and headpointed a route that had been put up on the headpoint and even had the same number of attempts on the rope as the first ascentionist had, even down the the same number of minutes spent on the rope, its fundamentally a worse style of ascent, because the route is already established. And the more repeats a route as had, the more of a worse style of ascent it is. This is regardless of arguments about what people should or should not be be doing, or how the style in which everyone should be climbing.

[SA Chris]

there's also that theory that the more often something is done, the easier it is for people as a collective to do it again.

Funnily enough, John Watson is going on about morphic resonance on his blog

http://stonecountry.blogspot.com/2009/11/four-fontainbleau-problems.html] [url]http://stonecountry.blogspot.com/2009/11/four-fontainbleau-problems.html[/url]

[dr crimp]

sweet dave.cheers for the bling.you're dead on the money.obviously opinion's towards styles of ascent evolve over time and i respect you're opine and agree hole heartedly.

[Shy Yorkshireman]

hole heartedly.

That a come on? You go girls.

[dr crimp]

yorkshire.might ave known you'de be batting for that side.

[Sloper]

http://www.thebmc.co.uk/Feature.aspx?id=1494 sorry for the ego trip but I think it deals with the 'issues'.

[tallsop]

A well written piece there, i'm definately on the wagon. However, (at the risk of making this thread even more off topic) we've established that working routes to death is definately not cool and a little bit limp, so, what abbout boulder problems, shouldnt we be  looking after those as well? i know we cant expect to flash hard boulderproblems, but should there be guidelines? for example, i can usually do v6 in one session, (depending on the problem - usually whether its easier for lankies or not!) knowing this, would it be wrong of me to have anything more than a V7/8 as an aspiiration/project? im pretty sure im not good enough to do a V9/10, so having repeated attempts at one would surely just damage the problem for others who are better suited to the problem? Take 'Brads wall' at stanton for example, that crumbly foothold? Maybe just a 'take things one grade at a time' approach would be reasonable? Some people might just think - oh, theyre only boulders!- but to some these classic problems mean just as much to them as classic hard routes do to others.
Just a thought, im probably just reading to much into it...