[Bonjoy]

Having just re-bolted Unleashing it seems like a good idea to redo the two easier routes just to the right. Both are well starred and don’t seep, both have tatty old gear. The routes, Cordless Madness and Cosmopolitan both start up the start bit of Unleashing then continue direct, with Cosmo taking the original and easier line bearing left at the top to the same lower off as Unleashing and CM breaking right to give a tricky extension. CM is an out and out sport route, Cosmo is one bolt short of a sport route having a big runout between the last bolt and the belay and is sometimes given E6 rather than 7b.
Question being, rebolt as per current positioning, or add an extra bolt to make a typical sport route of Cosmo? Worth bearing in mind that the rock typically becomes dusty/dirty each season which has probably contributed to Cosmo not seeing many (any?) ascents in recent years, onsight ascents being practically impossible until the route has been cleaned somewhat.

[fatboySlimfast]

Did cosmo back in the day and took the flight from the top and it actually wasnt that bad. My thoughts would be to give it a scrub, do like for like bolting and leave it as 'engaging' as the french say.

[cofe]

from the thread title, i thought you were on about style - bolting it over a machiato lunch with your 'girlfriends', a la Carrie Bradshaw in Bonking and the City.

[dave]

How big is the run out? i can't picture it. sounds like a "trad" route in that context (although sounds more like a half-arsed sport route rather than an actual trad route) that is almost all on bolts already is either going to be a wack trad route or a good bolt route. I suppose people could always extend a long sling/s from the belay as a faux-bolt. Personally I'm not a fan of sparcely bolted sport routes unless there's a damn good reason rather than a passing fancy for designer danger. Was it left unbolted due to bad rock, or were the first ascentionists operating within their limit so just couldn't be bothered?

[Neil F]

I thought the bit which seemed badly / inappropriately bolted was the hard wall immediately above the big horizontal slot/gash near the start of the route?

Given that this bit is common to both routes, I don't feel that Cordless Madness is an "out and out sport route" in its current state, nor would it be if the bolts were replaced like for like (despite the fact there are more of them than in Cosmopolitan).

For what its worth, I'm not sure the run-outs add anything to either route, and re-equipping with sensibly spaced bolts (no designer runouts, but equally not Matlock micro-spacing) is probably the most appropriate solution.

But hey, what do I know....

[ChrisC]

A friend of mine did it a couple of years ago by extending the lower off slightly as Dave mentioned.  That made the run out smaller but still not a standard sport route.  It didn't look E6 though, it just made it more like a poorly bolted sport route.

[Bonjoy]

Neil F – From your description is sounds like it (or more likely Cordless) has had more bolts added since you were last on it; currently the lower three quarters have pretty standard bolt spacing and the last quarter is a biggish runout to the belay. Does this make the final runout more incongruous?



Extending the belay is not so easy as the route traverses left quite a bit so extended clip may still be out of reach to the left.

To my mind the dirtyness is a significant factor. From what I’ve seen, given the choice between a dirty and runout 7b finish or a clean and not runout 7b+ finish, regardless of climbing quality, most climbers will opt to do the 7b+ thus re-enforcing the dirty/clean difference.

[Dolly]

To my mind the dirtyness is a significant factor. From what I’ve seen, given the choice between a dirty and runout 7b finish or a clean and not runout 7b+ finish, regardless of climbing quality, most climbers will opt to do the 7b+ thus re-enforcing the dirty/clean difference.

I agree and would include myself in "most climbers"
I've done Unleashing and Cordless but deliberately left Cosmo because of how runout it was.
Therefore, following that logic I would suggest that it should be rebolted as a sport route.

Who did the FA BTW and what do they think ?

[Jaspersharpe]

Gibson?

I say bolt it properly. It's a great route.

[Drew]

I'm not voting as I've never been on it, and have no vested interest (except I might try it one day).

My personal opinion, is why would you have a sport route, and not bolt it like a normal sport route? I can see that once upon a time, when every climber was strapped for cash, saving one or maybe even two precious bolts, for another route would be beneficial, but nowadays with more affluent climbers, plus the bolt fund, surely we should be bolting these routes so that everyone can enjoy them? I wouldn't want to put cash into the bolts fund, and not be able to do particular routes, because they have a big scary runout at the top. Fair enough in the North Wales Slate quarries, but this is Limestone.

[webbo]

Gibson?

so red point or ball point?

[Jaspersharpe]

Who can say!?

[Neil F]

Neil F – From your description is sounds like it (or more likely Cordless) has had more bolts added since you were last on it; currently the lower three quarters have pretty standard bolt spacing...

That's definitely changed then (and for the better).  There used to be a ridiculous runout from the bolt just above the big gash.

Sort the finish out as suggested, imo

[shark]

I agree and would include myself in "most climbers"

Most climbers don't need rescuing off the Pebble.

[Houdini]

One must exercise caution w/ re-bolting.  Some routes should remain bold - especially those that are bolted.  The corollary is that all routes will eventually be bolted well - and safely, and ultimately all routes will be popular polished toss; & limestone polishes fast.

Don't worry about lack of annual ascents: this preserves the route.

[fatdoc]

Did cosmo back in the day and took the flight from the top and it actually wasnt that bad. My thoughts would be to give it a scrub, do like for like bolting and leave it as 'engaging' as the french say.

me to...

i took the fall, more than once IIRC.

It's a tricky one this, as it is on one of the best shields of rock on the buttress if not in the dale.

Once it's clean and gets done a bit I dont think it will remain unpopular, back in the day despite the runout it was a route one would aspire to straight out of the E5s to get established in the E6 bracket. It was well popular and was a coveted trophy. I can rememeber Cummings, Ardron, FBSF, Norton et all all being very smug when they did it. I did it a year later... i wasnt as fit / strong. The runout was muttered about in the Porters... great times.. jumpers for goalposts...

Personally I would like the route left as it was first done... I will shed a tear when my sons clip the belay with a wobble on in years to come I'm sure.

The argument over lack of funds resulting in sparse bolting carries some weight generally in rebolting discussions but consider this route more in the vein of a route with bolts and spice, bit like the rainbow on slate. At the time the route was done there were a lot of bolts going in, it was indeed just before the embankment revolution... but at the time this was the normal way to protect the routes being done.

One thing for sure, I cant remember the day I did all those routes in the dale.... i do however remember clipping the belay on Cosmo very clearly indeed.

[Johnny Brown]

Without having done the route its hard to say, however I would sayin all these cases its worth trying cleaning, chalking, climbing, raising awareness etc nbefore resorting to a drill. There are a lot of unmemorable sport routes already in Cheedale, no point rushing to create another for the sake of 'popularity'.

[Fiend]

My personal opinion, is why would you have a sport route, and not bolt it like a normal sport route?

This could apply to a fair amount of Peak District so-called "sport" climbing though 

[Falling Down]

It's all very well banging this drum Fiend but by your own admission you don't do much sport climbing so why do you keep bleating on about the bolting. No-one else is bothered by it... 

[fatdoc]

Keep it focused peeps....

[uptown]

 

Polls on UKB about retro-bolting 3*** Gibson classics down cheedale are not democratic enough for me. As such it would be a real shame if you acted on the result JB. If people have climbed the route as it stands then their opinion should be noted, yet Mr Gibson is probably the best person to ask IMO. Chances are he intended it to be a sport route in which case BAM go ahead and bolt it up, yet changing the character of routes shouldn't be taken lightly without consideration to the FAscentionist. At the time (1985 - only 3 years after 'modern' bolts appeared down the dale) I think he was handplacing bolts, so the argument of cost should probably be replaced by time and the appetite for quantity of routes over safety. Mr Brown is right in saying that a brush, chalk and replacement last bolt might encourage some folk to accept a superb challenge rather than just another logbook 7b tick.

[andy popp]

This was a never a 'sort of' sport route in the sense of having maybe the odd bolt but also bits of fixed gear and a couple wire placements - it was fully bolted in that you didn't need to clip/carry any other sort of gear. A sport route then but a bit run out. When I did it in the mid-90s the run-out was even seen as part of the routes character/appeal. Keep it as is I say - though I may be a sentimental old fool

[Johnny Brown]

I don't really get this feeling that if a route/ crag is unpopular, then something 'needs to be done'. A lot of my most memorable routes have been unpopular for various reasons; generally it means they aren't predictable, clean, polished, boring etc.

[Dolly]

Most climbers don't need rescuing off the Pebble

Leaving aside for the moment the 2 inches of snow on top and "being rescued" involved asking you to move my mat round, just remind me again why I got to the top of the pebble and you didn't 

[Bonjoy]

Don’t worry UTG I don’t intend to take the result of this poll as a definitive mandate, it’s only a gauge of opinions. I’d ask Gary but he’s an argumentative bastard and will probably just try to say whatever he thinks is the opposite of what I want to hear.
For the time being I’ll probably just clean (and climb) the route when I re-bolt Cordless and leave it at that.

I don't really get this feeling that if a route/ crag is unpopular, then something 'needs to be done'.

I agree and there’s loads of routes down Cheedale which aren’t worth cleaning and/or re-equipping. Unpopularity of itself is no reason to ‘do something’ about a route. It’s only when a route is both unpopular and also very good, has something which can easily be done, which complies with the general will of the climbing world and will produce a worthwhile end product, that it is worth ‘doing something’.  Hence the question here, Cosmo is undoubtedly a good route and would be popular with an extra bolt, but does this comply with the general will of the climbing community? Without active management sport routes (and some trad routes) cease to exist and active management requires decisions to be made about routes and crags. Time passes, opinions and technology changes, some crags seem not to dry up anymore and it becomes valid to ask questions about how a route should be clean/re-equipped. Should our hands always be tied by arbitrary decisions made in different times and circumstances? The fact that you’ve recently removed insitu threads from an established route shows you also believe in re-appraisal, that something ‘needed to be done’.