[Peanuts]

Please do not put any extra bolts in Cosmo, I have done Cosmo, Cordless and Unleashing and the one that sticks in the mind is definately Cosmo. Replace the existing gear by all means but no new bolts are needed, the fall is fine, I can testify to that 

If you are re-equipping at the Cornice the route that requires some attention is 'Cry of Despair' the gear is completely rotten, which is a shame for such a classic route.

[Bonjoy]

I know, if it ever dries it’ll get re-equipped. Re-bolting filthy wet routes is even more unpleasant than normal re-bolting and you end up putting the bolts in bad positions as you can’t pull on to test the clips.

[Johnny Brown]

My point wasn't that poor routes aren't worth maintaining, its that good routes are often good for factors other than being clean, well protected and popular, in fact sometimes the opposite. As much as I sympathise with Fiend's complaint about seemingly random bolting on sport routes, I'm rather more opposed to the alternative, which is homogenous, fast food, Maccy D's routes which have are all the same, quick fix, good lower off what's next etc?

Re Stoney threads, my feeling is simply climbers had left the place looking a mess unneccessarily, and I wanted to tidy it up. My personal feeling is that all the fixed gear might as well come out, but in these routes I guess they add a historical element. With even a vaguely decent rack, none of the fixed gear on these routes is required.

Conversations since have suggested its more likely to have made the route less popular, apparently a mass of rotting threads is what encourages folk to go for a route...

Without active management sport routes cease to exist

This is one of my problems with sport climbing. It fosters the attitude that a climb is a permanent physical thing, and not just a mental construct/ historical record. Then the thing requires maintenance to sustain it.

Personally I don't care much for what has gone before or FA's wishes. The list of FA's whose opinions I particularly respect, or haven't performed abrubt u-turns, is pretty short:

I’d ask Gary but he’s an argumentative bastard and will probably just try to say whatever he thinks is the opposite of what I want to hear.

[Bonjoy]

This is one of my problems with sport climbing. It fosters the attitude that a climb is a permanent physical thing, and not just a mental construct/ historical record. Then the thing requires maintenance to sustain it.

And you didn't have similar misgivings about bouldering whilst shovelling hardcore underneath Deliverance?

[Johnny Brown]

Again, that's motivated by trying to remove/ reduce the traces left by climbers, not to restore the landing to a 'safe' level. In that respect I don't see it as analagous to putting drilled protection in a sport route. But we're going off on a tangent here...

[uptown]

Personally I don't care much for what has gone before or FA's wishes.

Hell yeah, they only had the original vision and motivation, although you'll argue their vision was blurred and motivation corrupt as opposed to yours? They should've left it for future, better generations with a purer ethic?
This also explains why you didn't have the courtesy to pm me before patioing that crappy Curbar thing? 

But we're going off on a tangent here...

You need to come climb at Kilnsey for a day, on a trad rack. I'll belay.

[fatdoc]

focus peeps.. focus..

all important views, in fact IIRC it's the only post where Andy Popp & I have been in full agreement, whilst both admitting we're old.. and are basically tryin to preserve this great route for our kids ( as opposed to the KiDz)

[andy popp]

No we weren't.

[uptown]

I knew he'd be lurking...

[dave]

This also explains why you didn't have the courtesy to pm me before patioing that crappy Curbar thing? 

I didn't realise you were the landowner.

[uptown]

We all know JB owns the Eastern Edges Dave, and you can have that tottering Tor...

[dave]

JB only rents them from Ron.

[SA Chris]

Is he Ron's rent boy?

[Bonjoy]

Again, that's motivated by trying to remove/ reduce the traces left by climbers, not to restore the landing to a 'safe' level. In that respect I don't see it as analagous to putting drilled protection in a sport route. But we're going off on a tangent here...

The “mental construct” called Deliverance “requires maintenance to sustain” as much or more than a sport route, this was the point you were making, hence my drawing the analogy. Climbing of all types has deleterious effects on the environment. The environment is no less damaged because the damage is incidental rather than premeditated. A well placed stainless bolt will still be going strong in >30 years time, how will Deliverance and it’s landing look in 30 years time? The bolt can be replaced, the boulder problem can’t. Should we all stop bouldering? Bouldering causes as much and probably more permanent irreversible damage to the climbing medium than sport climbing, the fact that the damage is unintentional and not done in the name of safety is of no consolation to the rock. Blah blah blah, yes this is going way off topic...

[Johnny Brown]

I don't agree. As with the art thread, intent is everything here.

Suggesting that because a rock may suffer erosion in the future is therefore justification for chipping it or drilling it now I find pretty horrifying.

I haven't heard of any real examples that support your assertion of bolts lasting 30+ years.

[dave]

isn't that because 30 years ago they were badly (hand) placing non-stainless expansion bolts though?

[etjoset]

For what it's worth, I don't think an extra bolt should be added to Cosmo. It still sees a fair few ascents despite being a touch bold and those last couple of (easyish) moves are quite exciting. Like a previous poster says, it's one of my more memorable ticks on the Cornice because of this. In any case, most of the hard climbing on that upper part of the wall is by or near the last bolt. Having said all this, I won't lose sleep if it is bolted.

I would bet money that GG will not want to see it bolted. He rebolted loads of stuff on that right hand side a few years back yet deliberately chose to leave this (one of his). Depiste his reputation for bolting, Gary has definite views on what should and what shouldn't be bolted. If you do decide to go ahead, you should defintely seek his opinion first.

For those that haven't done it, it is well worth the effort, especially if you've just done Cordless. If it's dirty, you can clip the belay with a long stick to clean it without too much faff.

[Baron]

Yep, no extra bolt needed. Use a clip stick, wire the run out and tell yourself it's still a path when your pumped (and maybe a little scared...)

[Bonjoy]

Suggesting that because a rock may suffer erosion in the future is therefore justification for chipping it or drilling it now I find pretty horrifying.

Thanks for sharing that. I feel the same way too. If I ever hear anyone saying anything like that I’ll join you in criticising them.
As you well know, what I’m saying is that we all as climbers have an impact on the environment. Let he who is without blame cast the first stone.

isn't that because 30 years ago they were badly (hand) placing non-stainless expansion bolts though?

Exactly. Yet despite the poor quality (small diameter, shallow placements and poor corrosion resistance) of the old bolts still in place, some are still regularly fallen on and some seem pretty bomb proof when it comes to extracting them. I suspect that saying a bigger, deeper bolt made of corrosion resistant steel will have an extra ten years of life is possibly a bit on the conservative side. Manufacturers garuantee is not the same as really life usability.

[Teaboy]

If long and 'memorable' runouts add so much to sport routes why don't more of them have them?

[uptown]

Is it not just a case of people who've done Cosmo wanting to preserve it for posterity so they can remind everyone how bold they once were?

No, I've not done it yet, as I wasn't bold enough. I have done unleashing and cordless and I'd always fancied the opportunity to try Cosmo as Gibson intended - it always inspired me yet I chose to wait, rather than just logging another 7b. Trouble is there's a lot of waiting involved when it comes to the Cornice conditions.

[Bonjoy]

I'm off there later on today. I'll give the whole route a decent clean but won't be adding any extra bolts. Maybe it'll see a bit more action now it's on people's radar, maybe not.
Even after heavy rain it's worth considerering the RH side of the Cornice as it doesn't seep like the rest of the crag. Ironically it's one of the driest bits of peak limestone, but rarely gets visited because folk (understandably) think it's going to be wet.

[Dolly]

Even after heavy rain it's worth considerering the RH side of the Cornice as it doesn't seep like the rest of the crag. Ironically it's one of the driest bits of peak limestone, but rarely gets visited because folk (understandably) think it's going to be wet.

I take it the routes to the right of cosmo are dry then ?
I haven't done anything further right than Mandy.
Would you mind posting on the conditions when you get back please ?
Or is that  ?

[Bonjoy]

Cornice was the wettest I've seen it all season  , even Unleashing and Cordless had wet patches.
Clean, rebolted and glued a couple of loose bits on Cordless, but the runout was wet on Cosmo so couldn't clean it.

[shark]

At the Area Meet last night Neil Foster said that an extra bolt has been placed on Cosmoplitan to remove the runout.

Anyone confirm this or have more details?