[Will Hunt]

unfortunately history does have a tendency to repeat itself

Certainly does, and unfortunately the left has a fine pedigree of spending so much time navel-gazing and arguing over just what type of left wing government they want that they take their eyes of the efficient machine of the enemy.

See Spanish Civil War (1936 - 1939). Franco ruled Spain for the next 39 years.

[johnx2]

Firstly, and most importantly, it's "toe the line".

And I refer you to the Forum ban / acceptable use policy - please read.

Anything Else?
Don't resort to critcising people's grammar or spelling when arguing/debating - firstly it's rather scraping the insults barrel; secondly people often type to forums quickly whilst at work, etc; and lastly some people may be dyslexic.

Sorry I should have known that might sting, and should have used a smiley (though to be fair people often don't know in real life when I'm joking - a yorkshireman's occupational hazard). And to be accurate in terms of the posting guidelines, I was pointing out incorrect use of an idiom, rather a grammatical or spelling error. I even thought there might be a defence and that exciting debate on correct usage might ensue. Hey ho... 


Here's one from Lilian Greenwood: http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/staggers/2016/07/lilian-greenwood-mp-jeremy-corbyn-continually-undermined-me-job-i-loved on HS2

"HS2 has always been controversial, including in our Party, but it is something that I believe is vital for the future of our country. It has the support of all the rail unions. It has the support of Labour leaders in the great cities like Birmingham and Manchester and Leeds and Nottingham. It is important for jobs and skills in Derby and Doncaster and across the country and it is our official policy to support it, as agreed by the Shadow Cabinet and our National Policy Forum. I’ve been one of HS2’s strongest supporters, so I when I took up the job in Jeremy’s Shadow Cabinet I wanted to be absolutely sure we were on the same page.

I met his Director of Policy to talk it through. We talked about the most difficult parts of the project, the impact at Euston in London. I'd been working with Councillor Sarah Hayward and her colleagues at Camden for more than two years to try and help them get what they wanted for their local residents. It had been very difficult. I'd been to visit several times, meeting residents and businesses and dealing with some hostile media. But we secured real concessions – changes that will make a difference to local residents. It didn’t matter that it was in a nominally safe seat. It was the right thing to do.

Despite our agreed policy, despite Jeremy's Director of Policy and I agreeing our position, without saying anything to me, Jeremy gave a press interview in which he suggested he could drop Labour’s support for HS2 altogether. He told a journalist on a local Camden newspaper that perhaps the HS2 line shouldn’t go to Euston at all but stop at Old Oak Common in West London – but he never discussed any of this with the Shadow Cabinet, or me, beforehand. I felt totally undermined on a really difficult issue. And when two frontbenchers voted against the three-line whip at 3rd Reading in March he did nothing, telling one of them: “well I've done it enough times myself." Breaking the principles of collective responsibility and discipline without which effective Parliamentary opposition is not possible."

Hope away by all means that everything's going to be okay. Evidence is that it isn't.

[slackline]

Certainly does, and unfortunately the left has a fine pedigree of spending so much time navel-gazing and arguing over just what type of left wing government they want that they take their eyes of the efficient machine of the enemy.

So perhaps they're trying to be too broad and accommodating and should split?

That doesn't predicate a fascist regime.

[BrutusTheBear]

Owen Smith seems a good bet. Seems to support the values that we each believe in (social justice etc). Looks like he can organise a piss up in a brewery.
I'm sure you're about to kindly tell me exactly why he is a shit from Satan's own arse crack, though.

I think he might be worse than a shit from Satan's own arse crack!  Seems not to support the values we believe in..  Didn't vote against cuts to Disability benefits,  believes in NHS privatisation, worked for Pfizer as a lobbyist, voted for Iraq war..  To me he appears to be careerist vulture and nothing else.  Not gonna get my backing.  Willing to be convinced but you'll have to do a lot of convincing.  Can't seem to find evidence of him doing anything particularly selfless or commendable. 

Anything on Tom Watson Tom Tom? 

[BrutusTheBear]

I am genuinely willing to be swayed by someone putting up a positive argument for someone other than JC but I am yet to hear anything other than he's unelectable/ he/she is more electable.  Still looking for substance...?

[a dense loner]

Why do you need to be swayed? Vote for him if you think he's good. It's just that most of the labour supporters don't agree with you, let alone his own party. So they won't be voting for him. You seem, along with a few others, to be making a very strange stand. A leader who a quarter of the party, generous I know, want as leader is no leader.

[Fultonius]

Why do you need to be swayed? Vote for him if you think he's good. It's just that most of the labour supporters don't agree with you, let alone his own party. So they won't be voting for him. You seem, along with a few others, to be making a very strange stand. A leader who a quarter of the party, generous I know, want as leader is no leader.

OMG 

Where do you get your information that

It's just that most of the labour supporters don't agree with you

? Do you have even  slight hint of some polls, or statistics showing this? He has a huge mandate within the labour party MEMBERS. As in, people who have registered to support the party, people engaged in politics who support the labour movement. They want him.

Second point, with regards to the MPs not supporting him. Yes, they don't. And yes, I think he's not an ideal labour party leader. If there was an alternative with his values but with a better media presence and better internal party leadership skills that would be a clear choice.






 






That sure as fuck isn't Eagle or Smith.

Back to the lack of support from MPs. Can you not consider the possibility that they are part of the issue? That none of them actually represent their own constituencies views?

[a dense loner]

Ah the grey area that is now registered members. I couldn't care less what you do with him. Just get on with it.

[Will Hunt]

Owen Smith seems a good bet. Seems to support the values that we each believe in (social justice etc). Looks like he can organise a piss up in a brewery.
I'm sure you're about to kindly tell me exactly why he is a shit from Satan's own arse crack, though.

I think he might be worse than a shit from Satan's own arse crack!  Seems not to support the values we believe in..  Didn't vote against cuts to Disability benefits,  believes in NHS privatisation, worked for Pfizer as a lobbyist, voted for Iraq war..  To me he appears to be careerist vulture and nothing else.  Not gonna get my backing.  Willing to be convinced but you'll have to do a lot of convincing.  Can't seem to find evidence of him doing anything particularly selfless or commendable. 

Anything on Tom Watson Tom Tom?

Where did you the info on his voting record, Brutus. He only became an MP in 2010 so not sure how he could have voted for the Iraq war. I'd also be interested to know how those votes that you cite compare against the party whip.

[Fultonius]

Ah the grey area that is now registered members. I couldn't care less what you do with him. Just get on with it.

Me, I'm not going to do anything with him. I don't support the labour party. I'm just sick fed up of media bias and how it shapes everyone's views.

[a dense loner]

It's not really media bias when of all the times I've seen him on TV, I've always thought what a shit weasel. The TV hasn't put that idea in my head, watching him squirm while unable to make speeches has done that. I pay a plumber to do my plumbing, I expect him to bring all the necessary tools with him.

[Fultonius]

It's not really media bias when of all the times I've seen him on TV, I've always thought what a shit weasel. The TV hasn't put that idea in my head, watching him squirm while unable to make speeches has done that. I pay a plumber to do my plumbing, I expect him to bring all the necessary tools with him.

God, this wall is going to fall down soon 

You don't get your views from the media, but you views are based on "what you saw him say on TV".  Do you not see the irony here? Or do you sit and watch the entire live feed from BBC Parliament channel?

You don't feel your view about him could be, in any way, influenced by editorial bias?

[a dense loner]

I thought I wouldn't need to say I don't get my views from links on the internet, the papers, magazines. Since I've said I think he's a shit leader I took it as read that I was referring to actually watching him try to lead in real time as it were, as opposed to reading a piece in the times or 8a.uselessleader. There is no irony there. Why would it be editorial bias? Are you telling me I've been watching him with his back to the camera the whole time? I have watched the parliamentary channel quite a few times tho I'll deny it if asked again.

[Fultonius]

All I'm saying is that the TV is only a window into the world. It's one way of getting your information and it is not free from editorial bias. (unless all you ever do is watch live feeds, unedited.)

[a dense loner]

I know all this since my iq is higher than 69

[Oldmanmatt]

I know all this since my iq is higher than 69

70?

(I know, I know, but you asked for that).

All posts either sarcastic, tongue-in-cheek or mildly mocking-in-a-friendly-way unless otherwise stated. Looking at you, here, Dense.

[BrutusTheBear]

Smith - abstained on Welfare bill - says he regrets it..  I bet he does.

Yep, my bad. I knew he was pro Iraq, he didn't vote on Iraq war but he did say this after the event :- "I thought at the time the tradition of the Labour Party and the tradition of left-wing engagement to remove dictators was a noble, valuable tradition, and one that in South Wales, from the Spanish Civil War onwards, we have recognised and played a part in."
Hmmmm.

When chief lobbyist of Pfizer he actively promoted the privatisation of the NHS.

Being a PR man he is currently trying to market himself as the 'soft left' option..

Dense, the point I am trying to make is that the only existing arguments for alternatives to Corbyn are essentially negative arguments based around Corbyn's shiteness.
 
I am willing to be swayed in that, if someone, anyone could present a positive argument for someone else I would consider them on their merits.  However, correct me if I'm wrong but there doesn't seem to be anyone with any positives that someone, such as myself, would consider to be worthwhile. 

I have heard all the arguments for why I shouldn't support Corbyn but no one is forthcoming with any reasons for supporting anyone else.  Apart from 'Smith seems like a good bet'. 

During New Labour 46% of the top 50 publicly traded firms in the UK had a MP or someone connected with the political elite as either a director or a shareholder.  I can't imagine things have improved since then.  Our political system is almost inextricably entwined with the business elite.  With people moving backwards and forwards between the two serving their own interests, those of the lobbyists and the businesses they are connected to.  Not many of our MPs actually represent the interests of their constituents any more, those that selflessly serve their communities are a minority (they do exist though).  The mainstream media is locked into this, to serve the interests of it's owners, they set the narrative and they manufacture the consent of the majority of the population.  Corbyn and people of his ilk are a direct threat to this establishment, thus the overarching narrative, the line of questioning, the phrases used and repeated, the flack that is thrown is all aimed at discrediting him and not allowing people to hear the ideas he represents.

[tomtom]

:D

[BrutusTheBear]

ha ha.

Standard.

[BrutusTheBear]

Still waiting for positive arguments in favour of someone else though. ??

[Bonjoy]

You'll be waiting a while, they look like a shower of shit. I haven't changed my mind on what I posted earlier, but of those three I'd vote JC. All available options are fucked up. Unless something wildcard happens, all conceivable outcomes from here look like leading to a long time in the wilderness. Feels like the 80s again. Basically of the three available crap options for leader, none of whom I think could win the next election, I'd choose the one who doesn't vote for wars.

[galpinos]

You'll be waiting a while, they look like a shower of shit. I haven't changed my mind on what I posted earlier, but of those three I'd vote JC. All available options are fucked up. Unless something wildcard happens, all conceivable outcomes from here look like leading to a long time in the wilderness. Feels like the 80s again. Basically of the three available crap options for leader, none of whom I think could win the next election, I'd choose the one who doesn't vote for wars.

Despite the fact I'm no fan of JC, I'd agree that the alternatives are pretty shit too. Bad times.....

[chris j]

Given how likely Corbyn is to be re-elected by a large proportion of the members, the constituencies are really going to have to bite the bullet and have a mass deselection of the PLP as it stands and select some candidates that can at least not actively oppose him. If it means the party splits then so be it, the situation as it stands is just unworkable. It will probably mean annihilation for Labour at the next general election but continuing down the same road they are on now doesn't look like a sure-fire path to electoral success either...

[galpinos]

Given how likely Corbyn is to be re-elected by a large proportion of the members, the constituencies are really going to have to bite the bullet and have a mass deselection of the PLP as it stands and select some candidates that can at least not actively oppose him.

Will he? Is he popular with Labour members? Of the people I know, the ones who support JC are the metropolitan left who are the £3 supporters, a lot of whom I guess can't vote in this election. The actual Labour members (i.e. the guys in my office, paid up labour members, would vote for anything with a red rosette etc) think he's a shite leader and want him out. I realise this isn't exactly a great sample but anything else is apparently anti-Corbyn media spin or Corbynistas preaching to the converted.

It'd be fascinating if it didn't mean a Tory government without opposition for god knows how long......

[tomtom]

Galpinos view is my take too from my friends - anyway, an interesting commentary in the indy which sadly is probably mostly on the money...

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/labour-leadership-election-jeremy-corbyn-angela-eagle-owen-smith-what-it-means-for-party-a7143356.html