Quote from: BrutusTheBear on July 15, 2016, 11:45:04 pmQuote from: tomtom on July 15, 2016, 10:48:16 pmQuote from: BrutusTheBear on July 15, 2016, 08:54:41 pmWet fish tend to get ignored Dense. Which is of course why he has been so useless as leader of the opposition. All this 'having to pay 25 to vote isn't democracy' stuff is utter rubbish. If you join or support (£3) the Labour Party you are paying a membership fee to a political organisation, not a democratic system! It's like paying to join a club -the comparisons made in OMM's quote are nuts - and if you think paying £3 means you should have an influence on how the government is being run now then you're deluded. If you want to see real threats to a democracy turn on news24 right now...I reckon our democracy is a sham and that you are Tony Blair's love child, I claim my £3 (actually let's make it £25 + 1 soul).I find your tone and methods of making arguments bullying. I'll explain a couple of my points further. I didn't make the Wet fish comparison, but as a leader of the opposition I think its pretty appropriate - as he is useless. Media or no media, in PMQ's (like it or not our established method of weekly holding the govt to account) he has been terrrible - missing important moments time after time - during moments when the Tory govt has been very vulnerable. He has completely failed to lead his parliamentary party. He cannot (we wont know but if he could it wouldnt be an issue) even get the support of 20% of them to be on a leadership election. Most concerningly he has a leader 'rating' of -41% amongst the electorate. He will never be PM in our present FPTP system. Even Owen Jones (I think? the Guardian columist and staunch Corbyn supporter) rather begrudgingly admits this.. I believe one of the main aims of the Labour party is to be in Government - as you cannot really change much in opposition. Deep down, do you really think (outside of the Metropolitan left) there is enough support for JC as PM...? So, what is the point? All I can conclude is that JC is a vanity project for the left wing of the Labour party. Of course as citizens of the UK we do not have to pay to vote.. RE: Coups - my point was in reference to the (to me) tedious referral to a 'Blairite coup' - I think what has happened in Turkey overnight provides a better example of what coup is really supposed to mean... like much of the language used by many on the left of the LP and (in particular JC supporters) its inappropriate in my view.
Quote from: tomtom on July 15, 2016, 10:48:16 pmQuote from: BrutusTheBear on July 15, 2016, 08:54:41 pmWet fish tend to get ignored Dense. Which is of course why he has been so useless as leader of the opposition. All this 'having to pay 25 to vote isn't democracy' stuff is utter rubbish. If you join or support (£3) the Labour Party you are paying a membership fee to a political organisation, not a democratic system! It's like paying to join a club -the comparisons made in OMM's quote are nuts - and if you think paying £3 means you should have an influence on how the government is being run now then you're deluded. If you want to see real threats to a democracy turn on news24 right now...I reckon our democracy is a sham and that you are Tony Blair's love child, I claim my £3 (actually let's make it £25 + 1 soul).
Quote from: BrutusTheBear on July 15, 2016, 08:54:41 pmWet fish tend to get ignored Dense. Which is of course why he has been so useless as leader of the opposition. All this 'having to pay 25 to vote isn't democracy' stuff is utter rubbish. If you join or support (£3) the Labour Party you are paying a membership fee to a political organisation, not a democratic system! It's like paying to join a club -the comparisons made in OMM's quote are nuts - and if you think paying £3 means you should have an influence on how the government is being run now then you're deluded. If you want to see real threats to a democracy turn on news24 right now...
Wet fish tend to get ignored Dense.
Brutus. Generally a smiley is used to indicate a joke or humour after a statement / post. Twig - who would I vote for? Tom Watson is the answer - butbibsuspect he's keeping his powder dry until the leadership round before the GE. I know very little about the other two - AE was great when she stood in at PmQ's - Owen I know very little about - aside from his in depth interview in today's Observer. Which provides some interesting insight into why he's running against JC. At the moment my vote will go to whoever has the most momentum ( :p ) of the not JC people.
Quote from: tomtom on July 17, 2016, 10:52:09 amBrutus. Generally a smiley is used to indicate a joke or humour after a statement / post. Twig - who would I vote for? Tom Watson is the answer - butbibsuspect he's keeping his powder dry until the leadership round before the GE. I know very little about the other two - AE was great when she stood in at PmQ's - Owen I know very little about - aside from his in depth interview in today's Observer. Which provides some interesting insight into why he's running against JC. At the moment my vote will go to whoever has the most momentum ( :p ) of the not JC people.That's the best you can come up with? ABC? (Anyone But Corbyn) - Because that is sooooooooooo 'electable' !
There are other opportunities to appeal to an electorate than putting on a good show at the farce that is PMQs. Like proposing better policies.
A more effective opposition to Tory rule is a fairly massive positive I would have thought.
So that's worth destroying Labour party for is it ? To find someone who "looks like he could...."
Tbh someone who looks like they could is a step up from someone who clearly can't...
Quote from: tomtom on July 18, 2016, 01:21:56 pmTbh someone who looks like they could is a step up from someone who clearly can't...And one, two years later you find you're back in the same position. I agree with Brutus and Twig & Somebody, its good to see someone who doesn't pander to the press and try and get the populist soundbyte vote which invariably means compromising principles, and it is, I think, something of a self-fulfilling prophecy that is playing out
I think re electing JC would destroy the party...
Quote from: tomtom on July 18, 2016, 01:21:56 pmI think re electing JC would destroy the party... That would be a bad thing? Split the party, have those who genuinely believe in principles (described well by others in this thread) go in one direction, and those who want to tow the Tory line but under a different name go the other.
Quote from: slackline on July 18, 2016, 02:50:00 pmQuote from: tomtom on July 18, 2016, 01:21:56 pmI think re electing JC would destroy the party... That would be a bad thing? Split the party, have those who genuinely believe in principles (described well by others in this thread) go in one direction, and those who want to tow the Tory line but under a different name go the other.Firstly, and most importantly, it's "toe the line". Secondly, try googling "SDP" or "Thatcher" to see what happened the last time Labour split (Tory landslides on a minority of the vote).Thirdly, the last Labour govt doubled spending on the NHS amongst loads of other good things. They're not the same as tories. The fact we're heading out of the EU should hint at one minor difference. Fourthly, calling anyone who things Corbyn's a disaster a "red tory" or "blairite" is just slapping label on to avoid listening to what they actually say.
Firstly, and most importantly, it's "toe the line".
Anything Else?Don't resort to critcising people's grammar or spelling when arguing/debating - firstly it's rather scraping the insults barrel; secondly people often type to forums quickly whilst at work, etc; and lastly some people may be dyslexic.
Secondly, try googling "SDP" or "Thatcher" to see what happened the last time Labour split (Tory landslides on a minority of the vote).
Thirdly, the last Labour govt doubled spending on the NHS amongst loads of other good things. They're not the same as tories. The fact we're heading out of the EU should hint at one minor difference.
Fourthly, calling anyone who things Corbyn's a disaster a "red tory" or "blairite" is just slapping label on to avoid listening to what they actually say.